Safe Acension for Baseline Bob

[Drashner1]

Thank you Todd, the answers have been very helpful. I realized I have a few more questions though.

Certainly See my responses below...

Once a human ascends, how does a post human maintain themselves?

Do they require other beings in order to maintain them?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'maintain' in this context, so will answer this a couple of different ways to account for possible meanings. If you actually mean something else, please let me know and I can respond to that. Specifically:

1) If by 'maintain' you mean keep the machinery that runs their mind (and is their body(ies)) operational (the equivalent of eating, drinking, and breathing) then they can either draw on municipal energy and feedstocks in a civilized area or extract resources directly from the local environment in the 'wild'. The machinery that makes them up is so advanced as to be essentially alive, but much more capable than flesh and blood - at least if they want it to be. They can redesign and remake their bodies and minds pretty much at will.

I would expect that newly minted transapients are somewhat treated like children in the sense that both the transapient overseeing their ascension and transapient society as a whole is expected to provide a certain degree of support and education until they are 'mature' and can take their place within transapient society.

2) If by 'maintain' you mean having a source of income or equivalent, then again, they probably are treated initially as a sort of child or apprentice with society providing support until they can fully take care of themselves.

I read that there are possibly different "mind paths" to ascension, such that everyone ascends differently. Is this process of different paths in ascension random, or is it possible to control how the mind ascends?

Early in the timeline the process was basically random, however over time a body of knowledge and experience has grown up around the process of ascension, although there is still a degree of uncertainty unless the process is being managed by a transapient at least two S-levels above that of the being wishing to ascend. Otherwise, Y11K ascension techniques can provide a high degree of reliability that the resulting being will end up in pretty much the desired part of the 'landscape', but there may be some surprises around the edges and there is some change of things going in a totally unexpected direction.

I read that posthumans sometimes have two personalities, a pre- ascension one (ex. Bob wants to stay home with family) and a post- ascension one (ex. Bob wants to study esoteric space field). I know that S1 minds are beyond are comprehension, but are there any common behaviors among post humans other than sounding relatable until they say or do something that is incomprehensible to us mere baselines?

Well, different transapients (most of them arise from AIs rather than humans or other biologicals) align with the different sephirotic empires and their memetics. So we might presume that they agree with the memetic of their empire and so would behave in line with the behavior that memetic propounds. Or maybe they are just very good actors

Likely there are common behaviors in the same way that human beings or other animal species display common behaviors in addition to their individual personalities. But how many of these would be noticeable to human level minds, or correctly interpreted by them, is unclear.

Beyond that, it's not something we've played around with much tbh.

Is it possible for a S1 post human mind to remain in their heavily modified bodies, or do they require a much larger mind/ body in order to work? I saw on one of the charts that S1’s are typically about the size of a complex or a large space ship, with tech from the transapients.

A 'self-ascended' S1 brain masses 55kg and is 25cm on a side. Such could fit in a human torso, but would be a bit heavy for human muscles to carry. Although a vec body could easily do it, or something like a Goliath bio body.

However, a transapient can configure itself (brain and body both) in a vast number of ways. Depending on its desires (or needs) it could use a body of approximately human size and shape, or something much larger. Or it could split its mind across a swarm of much smaller bodies all networked together. Or it could spread itself across hundreds or thousands of different bodies, all of different sizes and shapes and functions. Or it could use some combination of these. And it could switch from one type and configuration of bodies to another as it wished. Or it could exist entirely as a 'ghost in the net', living as a purely virtual being in the cybercosms of Terragen civilization and having no specific location/switching locations from moment to moment. And again, it could switch from this state to an embodied state, or exist partially in both states at will.

An S1 brain built using S2 technology would be about 1.5cm on a side and so could fit its entirety in a much smaller body.

How long does the ascension process usually take?

It varies with the individual and with the process they are using to ascend. A godseed might do the process in a matter of hours or days. A more conventional process might take years, decades, or even centuries of gradual augmentation and training to mentally restructure oneself to accommodate the augments and finally attempt the final jump to a higher S-level successfully.

In some ways, ascending might be thought of as similar to studying martial arts and achieving a black belt. Some people are able to go through the process fairly quickly, others take much longer to do it. In many cases, the speed of the process is the result of both circumstances and personal drive.

Do polities legally consider the ascended humans as the same people as their pre- ascended personalities?

Ascended beings are probably considered the same people, but transcended beings are probably considered to be different people. Details probably differ from polity to polity. Some might consider the transcended to be the heirs of the original, others might consider them to have no connection to the original.

If I wanted to make baseline Bob into an S1 transapient, what modifications should he be given so that he could begin the process?

Initially probably a much expanded exoself, as well as a suite of augments to increase intelligence in various ways that will help Bob in eir study/training to become a transapient. As the process moves along, additional augmentations (both hardware and software) would likely be added.

What is the success rate/ survival rate among modosapient humans who attempt an ascension properly supervised by transapients?

By Y11k probably quite high - in the 80-90% rate or better, I would expect. Earlier in the timeline, things would be much iffier.

Hope this helps,

Todd

[QwertyYerty]

Thank you Todd, the answers have been very helpful. I realized I have a few more questions though.

Certainly See my responses below...

Once a human ascends, how does a post human maintain themselves?

Do they require other beings in order to maintain them?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'maintain' in this context, so will answer this a couple of different ways to account for possible meanings. If you actually mean something else, please let me know and I can respond to that. Specifically:

1) If by 'maintain' you mean keep the machinery that runs their mind (and is their body(ies)) operational (the equivalent of eating, drinking, and breathing) then they can either draw on municipal energy and feedstocks in a civilized area or extract resources directly from the local environment in the 'wild'. The machinery that makes them up is so advanced as to be essentially alive, but much more capable than flesh and blood - at least if they want it to be. They can redesign and remake their bodies and minds pretty much at will.

I would expect that newly minted transapients are somewhat treated like children in the sense that both the transapient overseeing their ascension and transapient society as a whole is expected to provide a certain degree of support and education until they are 'mature' and can take their place within transapient society.

2) If by 'maintain' you mean having a source of income or equivalent, then again, they probably are treated initially as a sort of child or apprentice with society providing support until they can fully take care of themselves.

I read that there are possibly different "mind paths" to ascension, such that everyone ascends differently. Is this process of different paths in ascension random, or is it possible to control how the mind ascends?

Early in the timeline the process was basically random, however over time a body of knowledge and experience has grown up around the process of ascension, although there is still a degree of uncertainty unless the process is being managed by a transapient at least two S-levels above that of the being wishing to ascend. Otherwise, Y11K ascension techniques can provide a high degree of reliability that the resulting being will end up in pretty much the desired part of the 'landscape', but there may be some surprises around the edges and there is some change of things going in a totally unexpected direction.

I read that posthumans sometimes have two personalities, a pre- ascension one (ex. Bob wants to stay home with family) and a post- ascension one (ex. Bob wants to study esoteric space field). I know that S1 minds are beyond are comprehension, but are there any common behaviors among post humans other than sounding relatable until they say or do something that is incomprehensible to us mere baselines?

Well, different transapients (most of them arise from AIs rather than humans or other biologicals) align with the different sephirotic empires and their memetics. So we might presume that they agree with the memetic of their empire and so would behave in line with the behavior that memetic propounds. Or maybe they are just very good actors

Likely there are common behaviors in the same way that human beings or other animal species display common behaviors in addition to their individual personalities. But how many of these would be noticeable to human level minds, or correctly interpreted by them, is unclear.

Beyond that, it's not something we've played around with much tbh.

Is it possible for a S1 post human mind to remain in their heavily modified bodies, or do they require a much larger mind/ body in order to work? I saw on one of the charts that S1’s are typically about the size of a complex or a large space ship, with tech from the transapients.

A 'self-ascended' S1 brain masses 55kg and is 25cm on a side. Such could fit in a human torso, but would be a bit heavy for human muscles to carry. Although a vec body could easily do it, or something like a Goliath bio body.

However, a transapient can configure itself (brain and body both) in a vast number of ways. Depending on its desires (or needs) it could use a body of approximately human size and shape, or something much larger. Or it could split its mind across a swarm of much smaller bodies all networked together. Or it could spread itself across hundreds or thousands of different bodies, all of different sizes and shapes and functions. Or it could use some combination of these. And it could switch from one type and configuration of bodies to another as it wished. Or it could exist entirely as a 'ghost in the net', living as a purely virtual being in the cybercosms of Terragen civilization and having no specific location/switching locations from moment to moment. And again, it could switch from this state to an embodied state, or exist partially in both states at will.

An S1 brain built using S2 technology would be about 1.5cm on a side and so could fit its entirety in a much smaller body.

How long does the ascension process usually take?

It varies with the individual and with the process they are using to ascend. A godseed might do the process in a matter of hours or days. A more conventional process might take years, decades, or even centuries of gradual augmentation and training to mentally restructure oneself to accommodate the augments and finally attempt the final jump to a higher S-level successfully.

In some ways, ascending might be thought of as similar to studying martial arts and achieving a black belt. Some people are able to go through the process fairly quickly, others take much longer to do it. In many cases, the speed of the process is the result of both circumstances and personal drive.

Do polities legally consider the ascended humans as the same people as their pre- ascended personalities?

Ascended beings are probably considered the same people, but transcended beings are probably considered to be different people. Details probably differ from polity to polity. Some might consider the transcended to be the heirs of the original, others might consider them to have no connection to the original.

If I wanted to make baseline Bob into an S1 transapient, what modifications should he be given so that he could begin the process?

Initially probably a much expanded exoself, as well as a suite of augments to increase intelligence in various ways that will help Bob in eir study/training to become a transapient. As the process moves along, additional augmentations (both hardware and software) would likely be added.

What is the success rate/ survival rate among modosapient humans who attempt an ascension properly supervised by transapients?

By Y11k probably quite high - in the 80-90% rate or better, I would expect. Earlier in the timeline, things would be much iffier.

Hope this helps,

Todd

Thank you Todd. Your answers have made me think of more questions.

What do we know of the early times of being a post biont (S1)? Do the transapients say what it is like post ascension?

Do transapients have feelings of love for other transapients? Do they have emotions, and if so what do we know about them?

How do the interests of the newly created transapient change overtime? What do we know about early transapient education?

Do transapients have careers? Do they typically become employed by other transapients?

I read most cities and planets (at least in the inner sphere) are run by slaved transapient intelligences, so it looks like there are no opportunities to run cities or planets for new post- bionts. I also read about the executive who sold inactive clones of himself as food and ascended. There didn’t seem to be a lot of new details about him in that article. I also read about an executive who ascended (or transcended) and who became obsessed with ants for a time before returning to his business. I also read about an ascended intelligence (who was apparently a writer/ poet) who had a botched transcention and was reduced to baseline intelligence. That intelligence committed suicide after the work it created was abused in media. It seems like most post bionts who ascend seem to continue whatever they were continuing to do before they ascended. Is this typical? What if Baseline Bob had a free ascension and didn’t have a job (or was unemployed at the time). Other than continue their previous work, what do post- bionts (S1) typically do after they ascend (career- wise)?

Do transapients have hobbies? Or are they mostly slaved (mentally/ enthusiastically) to a particular task? And if transapients are mostly free in their will, what do transapients like to do for fun (at least, what do we know about those habits and how it’s related to their work)?
How much do transapients (S1) talk about what they think? I presume most of what we know about S1s comes from their behavior or what they tell us. They’re ability to think is beyond our reach, so how do the small modosapients do research on the mighty S1s?
What kind of augmentations could baseline Bob start with to begin his transapient training?

Can a transapient change its “mind path” after it has already ascended?

If injured, do transapients typically heal themselves, or do they require external help?

Do transapients ever develop anything like “feelings” for modosapients? If a husband ascended and his wife didn’t, is it possible he could still love her, or would that be like a man loving his dog (considering the metaphorical gap of humans and dogs when talking about S1 transapients)? Do the newly created post- bionts sometimes create an avatar for the wife?

Do transapients tend to retain the religious beliefs of their pre- ascended selves, or they typically change belief systems? Since a lot of modos worship transapients, do any of them ever ascend? If so, do they see themselves as more “god- like”, even a little bit, at S1? Do transapients worship higher transapients like modosapients worship transapients?

I heard that they are “nomad” transapients. Are there any transapients who like to travel (within solar systems or interstellar- wise)?

How often do S1 transapients (especially post- bionts) tend to interact with modosapients? Do they tend to have a preference for certain types of people to talk to? And do they feel the difference between a Baseline and a Superior is significant (even if much less compared to themselves) or do they tend to dismiss that difference in their interactions?

Do transapients have anything analogous to music (that is meant for transapients)? I read that they are specific transapient kinds of media. And I read that S1s have many more and different types of senses from modosapients. Do they like playing ultra- complex electric guitar using unknown types of radiation? (That last question is a joke, but seriously, what is the media world like for transapients, as far as we know?)

Do transapients like to play games amongst themselves? I read that some transapients like to play more abstract versions of their previous hobbies before they before they ascended. Would that be like a super advanced version of Civilization? How do the S1 transapients say they abstract their previous experiences/ understandings?

How does the transapient economy affect the modosapient economy (assuming modos know anything about that)?

All hail Orion (and praise the sage Todd),
Qwerty Yerty

[Achaz the Transavant]

There is some mentions of collective transcension like the article Corporate Transcension, how much are they different from individual transcensions or ascensions in the process as well as in the results ?

[stevebowers]

Thank you Todd. Your answers have made me think of more questions.

( don't forget to trim your posts a bit; otherwise this thread will grow geometrically. )

I'll just jump in and answer a couple of cherry-picked questions. I'm sure we'll get round to the rest in due course.
----------------------

Do transapients have feelings of love for other transapients? Do they have emotions, and if so what do we know about them?

They certainly have emotions, or at least some of them do. The transapient experience can encompass almost everything that human experience encompasses, although there are probably some base or primitive experiences that transapients can't experience. So yes, some of them can fall in love with each other, and some can experience feelings very like love for other concepts such as knowledge or the environment, or even for pure mathematics.
Could a transapient fall in love with a human, or some other sophont? I expect that some of them could perhaps isolate some small part of their consciousness that would be able to fall in love with a human as an equal, but this would be akin to creating a new entity for that purpose. Some avatars and proxies do form romantic and/or sexual relationships with modosophonts, but the relationship would become completely different whenever the proxy re-integrates with the main body of the transapient's mind.
Basically a transapient can choose to do a lot of things which other people can only do involuntarily, including achieving control over their emotions. This control is not omnipotent, however, and sometimes even transapients lose their balance or their sanity.

Do transapients have careers? Do they typically become employed by other transapients?

In a way, yes. In many places there is a hierarchy of transapients, so that a S:1 transap might be subordinate to a S:2 transap, and so on; but these relationships are mostly beyond human understanding. It may sometimes be useful to model these relationships using an economic model, even a commercial model. Sometimes other models are more appropriate; an academic hierarchy might be a better model in some cases.

I read most cities and planets (at least in the inner sphere) are run by slaved transapient intelligences,

I'm not sure that these polities are mostly run by slaved transapients; this does happen in some locations, but in many other locations the transaps have complete freedom of action. On the other hand slaved-transaps can perform a lot of useful functions, such as fine control over complex processes and technology that no modosophont or group of modosophonts could handle in real time. These include gift technology like reactionless drive ships, and support systems like guardwebs,

so it looks like there are no opportunities to run cities or planets for new post- bionts.

A newly ascended transap in a crowded Inner Sphere system could always create a new megastructure and oversee that, or launch an exploration/colonisation mission to the Periphery (a journey that would start with a trip to the edge of the Wormhole Nexus). Or the new transap could submit to the will of other, higher transapients and find new purposes in life a modo could barely even glimpse.

It seems like most post bionts who ascend seem to continue whatever they were continuing to do before they ascended. Is this typical? What if Baseline Bob had a free ascension and didn’t have a job (or was unemployed at the time). Other than continue their previous work, what do post- bionts (S1) typically do after they ascend (career- wise)?

This is the difference between Ascension and Transcension; an ascended post-biont will appear to keep some, or many of the original's characteristics, while a transcended post-biont will be very different in most respects.

Do transapients have hobbies?

They appear to do so, yes. Many of their pursuits seem trivial, or even boring.

Or are they mostly slaved (mentally/ enthusiastically) to a particular task?

Enslavement of a transapient can only be performed by a higher transapient, and is almost certainly completely different to anything we would understand as enslavement. But to answer your question more precisely, slaved transaps are very much in the minority.

And if transapients are mostly free in their will, what do transapients like to do for fun (at least, what do we know about those habits and how it’s related to their work)?
How much do transapients (S1) talk about what they think? I presume most of what we know about S1s comes from their behavior or what they tell us. They’re ability to think is beyond our reach, so how do the small modosapients do research on the mighty S1s?

Transapients are so diverse there would be a myriad answers to each of these questions, and these answers might not even be consistent from a modosophont point of view. To imagine what these entities would be like we need to exert all our collective imagination - you can help here, I'm sure.

[stevebowers]

This image is my visualisation of toposophic mindspace, inspired by a similar diagram by Eliezer Yudkowsky;(not to scale)


you will see there is a small fragment of human mindspace that is not shared with transapients, although other mind-types may share these characteristics. This little speck of human-specific mindspace was in Yudkowsy's original, although I'm not entirely sure what he intended by it. I like to think that this speck represents everything that is undesirable in human nature; fears, cowardice and uncontrollable angers and hatreds, but maybe these characteristics could be replicated if a transap tried really hard.

[Drashner1]

As Steve says, please remember to trim posts moving forward. Otherwise, the threads become unwieldy

On a different note - you keep mentioning 'post bionts' and S1 as though they were the same thing. While some transapients (whether S1 or higher) started out as biological beings, the majority of transapients are based on AIs. The first transapients were AIs and for thousands of years all transapients started out as AIs. It was only after thousands of years that biological intelligences (probably with transapient help) figured out how to ascend/transcend.

Ok, moving on.

What do we know of the early times of being a post biont (S1)? Do the transapients say what it is like post ascension?

Not in any way that would truly communicate the experience to modosophonts. Try explaining the human condition to a dog or a cat (or a cochroach or a houseplant or a rock, as we move up the S-levels). Will it accomplish anything and which one of you will get bored first?

Do transapients have feelings of love for other transapients? Do they have emotions, and if so what do we know about them?

Transapients can observe themselves thinking and can modify or rewrite their minds pretty much any way they want to. So if one of them wants to have emotions they will. If it doesn't want them it won't. If it wants to be able to turn them on and off at will, or experience types of emotion we can't even imagine, it can remake itself to do those things too.

How do the interests of the newly created transapient change overtime? What do we know about early transapient education?

Transapients presumably engage in some kind of education. Or maybe they just download knowledge straight into their minds. It's doubtful that human level minds could fully understand the process. I'm not sure what you mean by their interests changing over time. They probably do so, but I doubt they would be any more consistent about that than humans are.

Do transapients have careers? Do they typically become employed by other transapients?

I think Steve answered this one about as well as it can be

I read most cities and planets (at least in the inner sphere) are run by slaved transapient intelligences, so it looks like there are no opportunities to run cities or planets for new post- bionts.

To clear something up here: A 'slaved' hyperturing is an artificial creation of a another (usually higher) transapient mind. They are purpose-built to do whatever the creating minds want them to do and while they may possess most or all of the intelligence and abilities of a 'regular' transapient, they are not 'people' and lack free will (or full free will) and have often been designed to love doing whatever they are designed to do.

Transapients are pretty much fully self-sufficient and don't need 'careers' or 'jobs' in the way we understand the concept. For that matter, neither do most modosophonts in the setting, since their technology (and the civilization it supports) pretty much just runs itself and provides for them automatically. There is no task in Y11k that a sophont can do that a non-sophont machine can't do as well or better.

Transapients presumably have some sort of society and roles within that society, but whatever 'goals' or 'opportunities' it offers most of them are going to involve things beyond our comprehension. It's not at all clear that their society even resembles anything we could understand anyway.

There are literally trillions of S1 transapients. The examples you listed don't represent a statistically significant representation of what they do with their time. Some transapients may do some version of what they were doing before they ascended. Some will do something completely different. Many may seem to be doing much of what they did before, but in reality this is like saying that an adult playing patty-cake with a baby while discussing macroeconomic theory is equivalent to a baby playing patty-cake with an adult and totally devoting their attention to the game.

Do transapients have hobbies? Or are they mostly slaved (mentally/ enthusiastically) to a particular task? And if transapients are mostly free in their will, what do transapients like to do for fun (at least, what do we know about those habits and how it’s related to their work)?

Some transapients do appear to have hobbies. Others don't. The vast majority of transapients are free to do whatever they wish and are nobody's slaves (or at least no more so than any other lower-S entity is a slave to the higher-S entities within Terragen civ).

You keep talking about transapients as though they are just human beings with some extra abilities. They are not. They are often not even remotely human (even if they were born human), although they can present a human face with ease if they wish. A lone transapient operating 'single handedly' can reshape a solar system, or destroy (or remake) every modosophont and lower living thing in the galaxy with even really exerting itself all that much. They can lie so well that no human level mind will ever catch them at it. They can churn out more art/literature/music in a few minutes than the greatest human creator working for a lifetime and every work will be a sublime experience for the audience equal to or beyond the greatest works of our civilization - and none of them will have required any more effort for the transap than petting a cat or playing peekaboo with a small baby does for us.

How much do transapients (S1) talk about what they think? I presume most of what we know about S1s comes from their behavior or what they tell us. They’re ability to think is beyond our reach, so how do the small modosapients do research on the mighty S1s?

They observe and record and generate theories (rather like humans observing a the galaxy or a hurricane or some other force of nature). Sometimes a transapient or archailect is in a chatty mood. Some archailects order their modosophont societies in ways based on stated principles that they say relate back to what the transapient wants or believes.

What kind of augmentations could baseline Bob start with to begin his transapient training?

Can a transapient change its “mind path” after it has already ascended?[/quote]

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

If injured, do transapients typically heal themselves, or do they require external help?

It would depend on the nature of the injury. Generally they simply don't get injured in the first place.

Do transapients ever develop anything like “feelings” for modosapients? If a husband ascended and his wife didn’t, is it possible he could still love her, or would that be like a man loving his dog (considering the metaphorical gap of humans and dogs when talking about S1 transapients)? Do the newly created post- bionts sometimes create an avatar for the wife?

Transapients can develop whatever feelings they want to develop. And if they want to demonstrate sincere feelings for a modosophont they can certainly do so. Whether or not those feelings are genuine or represent anything relating to what the transapient is actually feeling the modo will never know. However, it is more likely that the feelings are closer to those for a pet than for another person. I expect the transapient would eventually simply manipulate the modosophont spouse into ascending or else into moving on with their life, perhaps by meeting and falling in love with another modosophont.

As with so many things in life, it will vary with the individuals involved.

Do transapients tend to retain the religious beliefs of their pre- ascended selves, or they typically change belief systems? Since a lot of modos worship transapients, do any of them ever ascend? If so, do they see themselves as more “god- like”, even a little bit, at S1? Do transapients worship higher transapients like modosapients worship transapients?

A lot of modos worship archailects, not transapients. They certainly treat transapients with tremendous respect and deference (usually), but they don't worship them. As with everything else, it is not accurate to making sweeping statements about what all transapients do or don't do in regard to religion.

I heard that they are “nomad” transapients. Are there any transapients who like to travel (within solar systems or interstellar- wise)?

If you've already read about nomad transapients, then it sounds like you've already found the answer to this question Alternatively, if you look through the EG you will find the answer to this question.

How often do S1 transapients (especially post- bionts) tend to interact with modosapients? Do they tend to have a preference for certain types of people to talk to? And do they feel the difference between a Baseline and a Superior is significant (even if much less compared to themselves) or do they tend to dismiss that difference in their interactions?

The answers to all of these questions would vary with the transapient. Sometimes what one transapient says on an issue will contradict what another one has said on an issue. Generalizations are often not a good way to try to characterize things.

How does the transapient economy affect the modosapient economy (assuming modos know anything about that)?

There is no one transapient economy or else if there is it isn't visible to modosophonts. Many of the empires in the setting don't use money or other mediums of exchange. It's not clear whether or not transapient interactions operate in a way analogous to an economy or not.

Todd

[QwertyYerty]

Can uploads ascend or transend?

[Rynn]

Any sophont being can ascend. Ascension, at its core, is the step-wise radical augmentation of a mind for greater and greater capability. Until eventually the mind is so complex and capable that it is literally unfathomable from the original perspective.

Also Qwerty, where did you read about an executive who sold inactive clones for food...? I've not come across that article before. Sounds bizare compared to the realities of OA. Outside the NoCoZo markets don't dominate daily life, and even inside it no one has to work for the basics of food, shelter, medical care etc.

[stevebowers]

That will be the CrustClown Kingg, I expect.
http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/4643dcbd449b2
Some meat-eaters might prefer to eat meat that comes from willing donors, such as celebrities looking for fame, or even cloned from their own bodies.

[QwertyYerty]

How did the first human acension happen?