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Safe Acension for Baseline Bob - QwertyYerty - 03-16-2016
Hey, I've been reading OA for awhile and it's great.
I'm curious on how a modosophont bionts safely becomes a transapient.
My best understanding of the process is that it involves augmentations and practicing a radical new way of thinking. What specifically is involved?
RE: Safe Acension for Baseline Bob - stevebowers - 03-16-2016
A first singularity transapient mind is around a thousand times more sophisticated than a human mind (some are more, some less). This level of complexity could easily collapse into chaos; imagine a thousand human minds all shouting to one another at once, over a shared DNI connection. So somewhere in the ascension process all this complexity must be arranged into a viable inter-communicating consciousness.
I suspect that a very large fraction of a transapient mind is dedicated towards understanding itself- a very tricky task, presumably. In a society containing numerous transapients, an even larger fraction of the mind must be dedicated to understanding other (equally complex) transapients. Compared to this complexity, understanding a modosophont mind would be child's play - nevertheless, you will find that a significant fraction of transapients do not specialise in studying modosophonts, so they might seem a bit distant and uncomprehending.
RE: Safe Acension for Baseline Bob - Rynn - 03-16-2016
Welcome to OA
I'm heading out the door now so can't rustle up some links at the moment but the basic answer is that it involves replacing the brain and the mind (bit by bit). The brain needs to be replaced with a much better, and much bigger, processor. The mind needs to be re-engineered; neural networks need to be tweaked, added, and combined with other mental configurations. The result is that you don't just think more, you think better and think differently.It's not something you can just train yourself to do. It's also quite dangerous. In many OA societies ascension is likely to be something that is regulated and overseen by other transapients.
RE: Safe Acension for Baseline Bob - Drashner1 - 03-17-2016
(03-16-2016, 01:09 PM)QwertyYerty Wrote: Hey, I've been reading OA for awhile and it's great.
I'm curious on how a modosophont bionts safely becomes a transapient.
My best understanding of the process is that it involves augmentations and practicing a radical new way of thinking. What specifically is involved?
The answer to this is somewhat involved...
As a bit of background: At one level, minds in the OA setting seem to be largely based on some sort of neural network that has to grow and 'learn' to form a conscious being or to change, rather than being written completely into existence the way we currently write a computer program. AIs are described as being created as neural network type entities, and biological minds are often described as being subject to personality change due to sufficiently radical biological changes, or even being totally lost if a sufficiently large change (such as an unsupervised ascension attempt, or a forced ascension via godseed) takes place.
This is the case for beings of a given S-level, whether dealing with modifications to themselves or creating new minds (AI). With thousands of years of experience, there are a host of tools and techniques to make new mind creation or mind modification highly reliable, but there is still an element of uncertainty. At one S-level above the mind that is being modded/created the level of uncertainty is greatly reduced, and at two levels above it completely disappears. A modo can create an AI with a high level of confidence it will turn out (mostly) the way they want it to. An S1 can do much better at creating an S0 mind, but will have a level of uncertainty if creating another S1 mind. An S2 can basically create an S0 mind 'from the top down' with total certainty of how it will turn out and total understanding of every aspect of it. But will be less certain if creating an S1 mind, and even less certain still if creating (growing) an S2 AI.
Because of the neural network nature of minds in the setting, a number of technologies that interface with them are designed to be 'self-adapting' or actively able to adjust their hardware and software to work with the users mind - particularly when first being introduced and pairing up with that mind. This happens with DNI implants, uploading systems, and exoselves. Each mind is broadly similar, but unique in the details and these machines have to adjust and restructure themselves on the fly in order to work properly with the user after initial activation.
When considering augmentation and transapience there is also the issue of growing complexity leading to diminishing returns. Most SF works on the theory that all you have to do is keep on adding processing power/memory/etc. and your mind will get better and better, eventually becoming something superhuman or 'godlike'. In OA we basically say that it is not a straightforward progression. Rather we postulate two major differences from 'standard' SF.
1) As more and more processing power is added and complexity increases, it becomes increasing difficult to coordinate all the extra capability.
2) If enough processing power is added, and the coordination issues can be staved off, you may suddenly undergo a sort of mental 'phase change' that results in a whole new level of mind. This means that not only is there a massive increase in all the different mental capabilities we are familiar with, but also that whole new ways of thinking and mental abilities manifest themselves, making the result literally incomprehensible to us. However, there are many many many possible ways that the phase change can go, and while some lead to massive increased intelligence, others can lead to decreased intelligence. Or insanity. Or the operating system for the technology wiping out or overwhelming the original mind. Or the resulting being being a sociopath or incredibly hostile to other minds. Or various other unpleasant things.
So, if you just pile on processors you may eventually hit a point of diminishing returns and plateau out. Or the whole unwieldy edifice of your augmented mind may lock up or crash.
Or, you might have an uncontrolled singularity jump and become an S1 or higher transapient - or a drooling idiot - or catatonic - or an S1 or higher transapient that is a blight or perversion that kills your entire civilization for the fun of it. Etc.
So how to ascend safely?
Based on the bits and pieces we described over the years (although we don't - but should create - a formal article on this), it would probably go something like this:
A sophont goes through some amount of training (lasting years to decades or more) that is somewhat analogous to what a person does to become a master of meditation or martial arts - but focused on mind and consciousness. At the same time, they undergo a series of augmentation, adding cybernetic hardware to boost the power of their mind and add on new capabilities. Basically, they are working to restructure their neural network from the inside out into a form that can accommodate the addition of augmentations that greatly increase their mental abilities without either crashing when the complexity gets sufficiently high or going nuts/up in smoke when the augmentation finally triggers a jump to the next S-level. All this generally supervised by another transapient, ideally. If all goes as planned the new being has essentially the same personality, is essentially the same person, as the lower mind that started the process (although that may rapidly change). This is called 'ascension'. If, however, the jump to a new S-level results in a being that may have all the original's memories but is otherwise a completely different entity from what you started with - you have a 'transcension'. If the new being is can get along with civilized beings, it is a transcenion. If it can't or won't and is hostile then you may have a blight or perversion.
Note that there are techs in the setting (godseeds) that can rapidly convert a modo into a transapient (or a transapient into a higher transapient). But these are essentially forcefully restructuring the user's mind into a new form without really bothering to adapt to their unique structure - it's more of a cookie-cutter/mass production process. This sometimes works - but other times it results in radical personality changes, or insanity, or the user's mind basically boiling away like fog in the sun and the godseeds operating system becoming the new transapient with all the user's memories or the like.
Anyway, that's my take on how this process works: Self-rewriting of one's neural net via a series of mental exercises and education combined with some amount of augmentation of one one's mind and body. Both of these operating together to allow a (mostly) safe jump to the next S-level.
Hope this helps,
Todd
RE: Safe Acension for Baseline Bob - Bear - 03-17-2016
I think "safe" as a modifier to "ascension" can be used only by people who fail to understand one or both of the concepts. It would be a discontinuity of identity and persona and perception, on the same scale as death.
RE: Safe Acension for Baseline Bob - QwertyYerty - 03-18-2016
(03-17-2016, 01:01 PM)Drashner1 Wrote:(03-16-2016, 01:09 PM)QwertyYerty Wrote: Hey, I've been reading OA for awhile and it's great.
I'm curious on how a modosophont bionts safely becomes a transapient.
My best understanding of the process is that it involves augmentations and practicing a radical new way of thinking. What specifically is involved?
The answer to this is somewhat involved...
As a bit of background: At one level, minds in the OA setting seem to be largely based on some sort of neural network that has to grow and 'learn' to form a conscious being or to change, rather than being written completely into existence the way we currently write a computer program. AIs are described as being created as neural network type entities, and biological minds are often described as being subject to personality change due to sufficiently radical biological changes, or even being totally lost if a sufficiently large change (such as an unsupervised ascension attempt, or a forced ascension via godseed) takes place.
This is the case for beings of a given S-level, whether dealing with modifications to themselves or creating new minds (AI). With thousands of years of experience, there are a host of tools and techniques to make new mind creation or mind modification highly reliable, but there is still an element of uncertainty. At one S-level above the mind that is being modded/created the level of uncertainty is greatly reduced, and at two levels above it completely disappears. A modo can create an AI with a high level of confidence it will turn out (mostly) the way they want it to. An S1 can do much better at creating an S0 mind, but will have a level of uncertainty if creating another S1 mind. An S2 can basically create an S0 mind 'from the top down' with total certainty of how it will turn out and total understanding of every aspect of it. But will be less certain if creating an S1 mind, and even less certain still if creating (growing) an S2 AI.
Because of the neural network nature of minds in the setting, a number of technologies that interface with them are designed to be 'self-adapting' or actively able to adjust their hardware and software to work with the users mind - particularly when first being introduced and pairing up with that mind. This happens with DNI implants, uploading systems, and exoselves. Each mind is broadly similar, but unique in the details and these machines have to adjust and restructure themselves on the fly in order to work properly with the user after initial activation.
When considering augmentation and transapience there is also the issue of growing complexity leading to diminishing returns. Most SF works on the theory that all you have to do is keep on adding processing power/memory/etc. and your mind will get better and better, eventually becoming something superhuman or 'godlike'. In OA we basically say that it is not a straightforward progression. Rather we postulate two major differences from 'standard' SF.
1) As more and more processing power is added and complexity increases, it becomes increasing difficult to coordinate all the extra capability.
2) If enough processing power is added, and the coordination issues can be staved off, you may suddenly undergo a sort of mental 'phase change' that results in a whole new level of mind. This means that not only is there a massive increase in all the different mental capabilities we are familiar with, but also that whole new ways of thinking and mental abilities manifest themselves, making the result literally incomprehensible to us. However, there are many many many possible ways that the phase change can go, and while some lead to massive increased intelligence, others can lead to decreased intelligence. Or insanity. Or the operating system for the technology wiping out or overwhelming the original mind. Or the resulting being being a sociopath or incredibly hostile to other minds. Or various other unpleasant things.
So, if you just pile on processors you may eventually hit a point of diminishing returns and plateau out. Or the whole unwieldy edifice of your augmented mind may lock up or crash.
Or, you might have an uncontrolled singularity jump and become an S1 or higher transapient - or a drooling idiot - or catatonic - or an S1 or higher transapient that is a blight or perversion that kills your entire civilization for the fun of it. Etc.
So how to ascend safely?
Based on the bits and pieces we described over the years (although we don't - but should create - a formal article on this), it would probably go something like this:
A sophont goes through some amount of training (lasting years to decades or more) that is somewhat analogous to what a person does to become a master of meditation or martial arts - but focused on mind and consciousness. At the same time, they undergo a series of augmentation, adding cybernetic hardware to boost the power of their mind and add on new capabilities. Basically, they are working to restructure their neural network from the inside out into a form that can accommodate the addition of augmentations that greatly increase their mental abilities without either crashing when the complexity gets sufficiently high or going nuts/up in smoke when the augmentation finally triggers a jump to the next S-level. All this generally supervised by another transapient, ideally. If all goes as planned the new being has essentially the same personality, is essentially the same person, as the lower mind that started the process (although that may rapidly change). This is called 'ascension'. If, however, the jump to a new S-level results in a being that may have all the original's memories but is otherwise a completely different entity from what you started with - you have a 'transcension'. If the new being is can get along with civilized beings, it is a transcenion. If it can't or won't and is hostile then you may have a blight or perversion.
Note that there are techs in the setting (godseeds) that can rapidly convert a modo into a transapient (or a transapient into a higher transapient). But these are essentially forcefully restructuring the user's mind into a new form without really bothering to adapt to their unique structure - it's more of a cookie-cutter/mass production process. This sometimes works - but other times it results in radical personality changes, or insanity, or the user's mind basically boiling away like fog in the sun and the godseeds operating system becoming the new transapient with all the user's memories or the like.
Anyway, that's my take on how this process works: Self-rewriting of one's neural net via a series of mental exercises and education combined with some amount of augmentation of one one's mind and body. Both of these operating together to allow a (mostly) safe jump to the next S-level.
Hope this helps,
Todd
Thanks, it is helpful. I have some more questions though.
Who are the transapients who oversee this process, and why do they do it (as far as we know)?
What specific techniques of controlling this extra capacity are taught? An example would be great.
Are all successful acensions the same?
How do modos get access to this process legally?
Is there a financial cost for the modo? If so, how much is it, and how is it typically afforded? Can you get a loan for an acension?
Also thank you everyone who has been replying to me so far, I love the OA enclyopedia and I'm brand new to the forums!
Newbie,
QwertyYerty
RE: Safe Acension for Baseline Bob - Drashner1 - 03-18-2016
(03-18-2016, 10:00 AM)QwertyYerty Wrote: Thanks, it is helpful. I have some more questions though.
Who are the transapients who oversee this process, and why do they do it (as far as we know)?
This varies depending on where you are. Keter and the Solar Dominion are described as having rather a thing for helping sophonts ascend, so have specific groups or classes of transapients who do this (there's a partial story on the site that talks about something called Guidance that operates in the Solar Dominion and is part of this operation there), either because they buy into the culture/memetic or because the ruling archai have directed them (or created them) to do so.
In other places it may be something some transaps volunteer to do because they want to. Or they do it in exchange for something from the modo in question (this might especially apply to the NoCoZo, but could take various forms elsewhere as well. For example, some period of time of indentured service, or just 'owing a favor' to the transap. Or whatever.). There are also the Transcension Mazes which somewhat automate the process and are presumably created by transaps who want to help lower minds ascend, but don't feel like personally overseeing the process all the time.
On the most general level, it's not really known in the setting why the Sephirotic transapients keep modosophonts around or put effort into helping them ascend/transcend. Although there are many theories. Maybe its the way the archai reproduce themselves. Or maybe they just like the additional company. Or maybe any number of other possibilities.
(03-18-2016, 10:00 AM)QwertyYerty Wrote: What specific techniques of controlling this extra capacity are taught? An example would be great.
If we knew that, we'd presumably be busy ascending ourselves
Somewhat more seriously, we've never really tried to quantify this very much. The actual methodologies and techniques may be as far beyond our RL experience and understanding as karate is beyond a Neanderthal (remember, quite a lot of augmenting can be done before one starts even getting close to transapient level). Or it might just be a matter of the group putting its mind to it to come up with at least some plausible options.
(03-18-2016, 10:00 AM)QwertyYerty Wrote: Are all successful acensions the same?
Earlier in the OA project, we pretty much treated them that way, not counting the differences between S-levels. As the project has evolved, our view on this has shifted and the current take on things is that there is some variation from transapient to transapient (or between clades of transapient), either due to different beings arriving at different 'locations' within the entire landscape of possible states of being within an S-level or due to a manifestation of something analogous to the differences in personality and traits that different humans display due to some combination of nature and environment.
(03-18-2016, 10:00 AM)QwertyYerty Wrote: How do modos get access to this process legally?
The transapients rule Terragen civilization, and within the Sephirotics make the process freely (or mostly freely - see above re the earlier question about why a transap might do this) available. Modosophont governments and legal systems have no say in the matter. Those that attempt to do so are either remade or eliminated and replaced by transapient action. Or simply ignored. Although very few modo governments are going to contemplate this in the sephirotics because they are the product of transapient memetics and likely firmly believe that attempting to ascend is a right or close to it.
(03-18-2016, 10:00 AM)QwertyYerty Wrote: Is there a financial cost for the modo? If so, how much is it, and how is it typically afforded? Can you get a loan for an acension?
In the NoCoZo or other polities that use money, there might be. But if so, the cost is likely pretty nominal. In other empires, access to the process is freely available. Of course, it's also a lot of work and takes a good bit of time and may make you into a totally different being who finds everything about your current existence (including friends and family) to be massively insignificant - and there's always a finite chance that it will go horribly horribly wrong and kill you (or worse), so the actual number of people trying to ascend at any given time is pretty low.
(03-18-2016, 10:00 AM)QwertyYerty Wrote: Also thank you everyone who has been replying to me so far, I love the OA enclyopedia and I'm brand new to the forums!
Newbie,
QwertyYerty
You're very welcome
Hope the answers are helpful.Todd
RE: Safe Acension for Baseline Bob - QwertyYerty - 04-14-2016
(03-18-2016, 11:38 AM)Drashner1 Wrote:(03-18-2016, 10:00 AM)QwertyYerty Wrote: Thanks, it is helpful. I have some more questions though.
Who are the transapients who oversee this process, and why do they do it (as far as we know)?
This varies depending on where you are. Keter and the Solar Dominion are described as having rather a thing for helping sophonts ascend, so have specific groups or classes of transapients who do this (there's a partial story on the site that talks about something called Guidance that operates in the Solar Dominion and is part of this operation there), either because they buy into the culture/memetic or because the ruling archai have directed them (or created them) to do so.
In other places it may be something some transaps volunteer to do because they want to. Or they do it in exchange for something from the modo in question (this might especially apply to the NoCoZo, but could take various forms elsewhere as well. For example, some period of time of indentured service, or just 'owing a favor' to the transap. Or whatever.). There are also the Transcension Mazes which somewhat automate the process and are presumably created by transaps who want to help lower minds ascend, but don't feel like personally overseeing the process all the time.
On the most general level, it's not really known in the setting why the Sephirotic transapients keep modosophonts around or put effort into helping them ascend/transcend. Although there are many theories. Maybe its the way the archai reproduce themselves. Or maybe they just like the additional company. Or maybe any number of other possibilities.
(03-18-2016, 10:00 AM)QwertyYerty Wrote: What specific techniques of controlling this extra capacity are taught? An example would be great.
If we knew that, we'd presumably be busy ascending ourselves
Somewhat more seriously, we've never really tried to quantify this very much. The actual methodologies and techniques may be as far beyond our RL experience and understanding as karate is beyond a Neanderthal (remember, quite a lot of augmenting can be done before one starts even getting close to transapient level). Or it might just be a matter of the group putting its mind to it to come up with at least some plausible options.
(03-18-2016, 10:00 AM)QwertyYerty Wrote: Are all successful acensions the same?
Earlier in the OA project, we pretty much treated them that way, not counting the differences between S-levels. As the project has evolved, our view on this has shifted and the current take on things is that there is some variation from transapient to transapient (or between clades of transapient), either due to different beings arriving at different 'locations' within the entire landscape of possible states of being within an S-level or due to a manifestation of something analogous to the differences in personality and traits that different humans display due to some combination of nature and environment.
(03-18-2016, 10:00 AM)QwertyYerty Wrote: How do modos get access to this process legally?
The transapients rule Terragen civilization, and within the Sephirotics make the process freely (or mostly freely - see above re the earlier question about why a transap might do this) available. Modosophont governments and legal systems have no say in the matter. Those that attempt to do so are either remade or eliminated and replaced by transapient action. Or simply ignored. Although very few modo governments are going to contemplate this in the sephirotics because they are the product of transapient memetics and likely firmly believe that attempting to ascend is a right or close to it.
(03-18-2016, 10:00 AM)QwertyYerty Wrote: Is there a financial cost for the modo? If so, how much is it, and how is it typically afforded? Can you get a loan for an acension?
In the NoCoZo or other polities that use money, there might be. But if so, the cost is likely pretty nominal. In other empires, access to the process is freely available. Of course, it's also a lot of work and takes a good bit of time and may make you into a totally different being who finds everything about your current existence (including friends and family) to be massively insignificant - and there's always a finite chance that it will go horribly horribly wrong and kill you (or worse), so the actual number of people trying to ascend at any given time is pretty low.
(03-18-2016, 10:00 AM)QwertyYerty Wrote: Also thank you everyone who has been replying to me so far, I love the OA enclyopedia and I'm brand new to the forums!
Newbie,
QwertyYerty
You're very welcome
Todd
Thank you Todd, the answers have been very helpful. I realized I have a few more questions though.
Once a human ascends, how does a post human maintain themselves?
Do they require other beings in order to maintain them?
I read that there are possibly different "mind paths" to ascension, such that everyone ascends differently. Is this process of different paths in ascension random, or is it possible to control how the mind ascends?
I read that posthumans sometimes have two personalities, a pre- ascension one (ex. Bob wants to stay home with family) and a post- ascension one (ex. Bob wants to study esoteric space field). I know that S1 minds are beyond are comprehension, but are there any common behaviors among post humans other than sounding relatable until they say or do something that is incomprehensible to us mere baselines?
Is it possible for a S1 post human mind to remain in their heavily modified bodies, or do they require a much larger mind/ body in order to work? I saw on one of the charts that S1’s are typically about the size of a complex or a large space ship, with tech from the transapients.
How long does the ascension process usually take?
Do polities legally consider the ascended humans as the same people as their pre- ascended personalities?
If I wanted to make baseline Bob into an S1 transapient, what modifications should he be given so that he could begin the process?
What is the success rate/ survival rate among modosapient humans who attempt an ascension properly supervised by transapients?
RE: Safe Acension for Baseline Bob - stevebowers - 04-14-2016
Success and survival are two different things. Only a fraction of sophonts who attempt to ascend will do so successfully (I'm not sure how large that fraction is).
But in the Current Era almost all of those who fail to ascend can be retrieved in some form or another. Some of these will be absorbed/subsumed by the transapient who is supervising the process, or by some other entity; a smaller fraction of the failures will be returned to their normal state.
Quite a few sophonts who attempt this process will transcend rather than ascend - that is to say they will attain transapient status, but the end result will be so different to the original that they will be considered new individuals. We don't want ascension to be considered too easy, otherwise most modosophonts might want to do it. Having said that it seems likely that Keter or the TRHN would be very good at achieving a safe ascension for a large fraction of sophonts.
RE: Safe Acension for Baseline Bob - Rynn - 04-14-2016
Depends what you mean by "safe" and "successful". Safe, to my mind, means that the resulting entity is not a blight or perversion. Most empires are likely quite capable of achieving this, though it possibly takes an entity one S-level higher than you are trying to attain to achieve. As for "successful", as Bear said a transapient is so far beyond a modosophont that talking about it in terms of the same person is laughable. Like expecting a fertilised egg and Socrates to be very alike. Many transapients may maintain a modo-level avatar modelled on their previous selves but it's little more than a finger puppet for talking to animals.