New/Semilurker with questions

[SteelEnsouled]

The old concept of slavery in Roman society was that the slave was a so-called 'speaking tool' (instrumentum vocale), and the slave-owner would rely on the fact that their slave was fully sophont and could act on its own initiative. This could easily be the case in some locations during the Late Interplanetary Age, and all through the Dark Ages until the Early Federation. Other periods of slavery and enforced obedience have definitely occured at other times and places in the long history of the Terragen Sphere.

Note that the mental architecture of vecs and AIs is likely to be very diverse; some quite sophisticated vec and AI minds could be partially slaved or asimoved;
Asimovec - http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/47e86f053ba0f
Slaved AI - http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/478589c0a46e2
and even slaved hyperturings, transapients who are constrained to obey lesser beings
http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/49abc9e77c5a2

I would imagine that especially early on, where there would probably still be a great deal of controversy and fear of what vecs could do--especially pre-Nanoswarm where the cultural memories of stories about things like the Borg, the Cylons, or the Daleks still exist--that such treatment would be quite common.

Stories have a bit more flexibility in this regard (or in regard to the setting in general) because they are presumably relating what the characters think/believe/experience not necessarily the 'facts' of the setting that the EG lays out. Canon is a bit more restricted, mainly in terms of physics (if your characters are going to be flying around in a tachyon drive FTL starship we're going to have a problem ), but we can discuss any potential issues.

No worries...I won't be developing any warp engines here anytime soon.

There are a few areas where I am quite sure I will need a technology review, though.

In terms of the timeline strictures, we'd need to look at what you want to do and when you want to do it and go from there.

Where would the best place be to make a more coherent proposal as to what I see happening in the story?

Pretty much yes. Characters can pretty much do/say what they need/want to make a good story. An author tract in the form of a story gets trickier, but again will depend on the subject matter and circumstances. As always, the best approach is to present the idea(s) to the forum and see what folks say.

I would say the plot I have in mind will go into areas that some might consider controversial, but I have already seen a number of things that could cause controversy in the EG and in other stories, so I might well be OK.

Hm. Which outcomes? Just curious and, separate from any stories, this sort of thing can make for interesting discussions and sometimes new ideas or refinement of existing ones.

The control of the archailects would be the big one. Losing sovereignty to our own creations, in effect, is quite disturbing because if there's one thing we know about human nature, we're flawed, and what we create isn't perfect either...

It would also be dishonest of me not to say that the breakdown of society in the form we recognize it today isn't frightening in some respects. That's not an attack--it's just human nature to feel that way sometimes.

[Drashner1]

I would imagine that especially early on, where there would probably still be a great deal of controversy and fear of what vecs could do--especially pre-Nanoswarm where the cultural memories of stories about things like the Borg, the Cylons, or the Daleks still exist--that such treatment would be quite common.

Actually, I'd sort of expect this to be more of an issue when the first AIs were developed in the mid 21st century. In fact, the whole AI's apparently having some degree of freedom (up to citizenship by the time we hit the First Federation) while vecs didn't (or at least had to jump through a lot more hoops to get) is something we need to work out.

So far, the most I've been able to come up with is that perhaps:

a) the development of uploading tech (even the early destructive kind) led to pressure to give intelligent software more rights/full rights

b) vecs were initially developed as 'smart' labor that was still not fully sophont. However, due to market forces and just general tech progress, each subsequent generation/model was made more and more capable while still not quite crossing the line to full turingrade AI/sophonce that would have forced people to grant them rights. Until one day they accidentally did. But then they didn't want to admit it because the vecs in question were so darn useful (not to mention profitable). In some respects this might be similar to the various mental hoops that were jumped through in the American South to justify slavery (eg. God made black people inferior with the intent that they become slaves, it's a matter of states rights, blah blah blah). It's also possible that people (or at least large chunks of the population) at this point in the timeline were not terribly nice by our standards.

Anyway, an area we probably need to work out. Although I don't think that will interfere with the development of your story.

There are a few areas where I am quite sure I will need a technology review, though.

No worries - just ask

In terms of the timeline strictures, we'd need to look at what you want to do and when you want to do it and go from there.

Where would the best place be to make a more coherent proposal as to what I see happening in the story?

The Creative Writing sub-forum for the proposal, outlines, drafts, etc. relating to the development of the story. For the tech questions you can either post them to this sub-forum or over on the creative writing one. We'll see em either way and can respond in either spot. Although you might get more responses and ideas on this forum just because some members who are more into the general setting discussion may not pay as much attention to the creative writing section and so miss your post. I'm honestly not sure how everyone interfaces with the forum so am only kind of guessing here

I would say the plot I have in mind will go into areas that some might consider controversial, but I have already seen a number of things that could cause controversy in the EG and in other stories, so I might well be OK.

Probably If you'd like, you can post a plot outline or summary containing the potentially controversial bits first and see what folks say.

Hm. Which outcomes? Just curious and, separate from any stories, this sort of thing can make for interesting discussions and sometimes new ideas or refinement of existing ones.

The control of the archailects would be the big one. Losing sovereignty to our own creations, in effect, is quite disturbing because if there's one thing we know about human nature, we're flawed, and what we create isn't perfect either...

It would also be dishonest of me not to say that the breakdown of society in the form we recognize it today isn't frightening in some respects. That's not an attack--it's just human nature to feel that way sometimes.
[/quote]

Regarding the first issue, I can say that this actually comes up among new (and even not so new) members fairly often. The rule of the archailects is very much a deliberate 'plot choice' for the setting that the founding members made. I wasn't there for that initial decision, so I don't know how much discussion went into it (although I suppose a quick archive dive could tell me). I guess the main thing I'd say about it is that in OA we are often seeking to create an interesting and plausible future without necessarily any regard for whether or not it's a 'happy' future by most of the standards people are used to.

On the one hand the people of OA live incredibly rich, secure, and interesting lives. They are in many ways more free than any society in RL past or present. At the same time, they are utterly at the mercy of vastly more powerful and capable beings who may decide to wipe them from existence at any moment (and can with trivial effort). But they haven't yet so most people in the setting don't worry about it. It's been suggested that people in OA may be similar to people in past centuries who believed in the existence of 'nature spirits' living in practically every rock, tree, and stream. Living, thinking creatures who were intelligent but inhuman and who had to be propitiated, or at least treated with some degree of respect, as you went about in the world. Not to mention the gods who lived in the sky or in the Earth or wherever. The OA setting, with its various AIs, and living technology, and superhuman archailects may share similarities to such a way of life and its mindset.

Regarding your second point - I don't think I've heard that issue raised before. It sounds interesting. Can you elaborate on it a bit more please?

Todd

[SteelEnsouled]

b) vecs were initially developed as 'smart' labor that was still not fully sophont. However, due to market forces and just general tech progress, each subsequent generation/model was made more and more capable while still not quite crossing the line to full turingrade AI/sophonce that would have forced people to grant them rights. Until one day they accidentally did. But then they didn't want to admit it because the vecs in question were so darn useful (not to mention profitable). In some respects this might be similar to the various mental hoops that were jumped through in the American South to justify slavery (eg. God made black people inferior with the intent that they become slaves, it's a matter of states rights, blah blah blah). It's also possible that people (or at least large chunks of the population) at this point in the timeline were not terribly nice by our standards.

This is actually what I was seeing as the likely scenario, myself. They weren't initally meant to be turingrade, but once the crossover happened, people rationalized it because they had meant the vecs as labor. A lot of what happened in the South during the slave era could be classified as psychological dependence just as much as it was economic dependence--and especially if this is before nanotech really took off, you are definitely not looking at a post-scarcity economy. Your timeline even seems to suggest severe economic upheavals due to its not being an easy transition. If people (almost like now, or in the Great Depression) see themselves as one step away from chaos, that makes both kinds of dependence--and the rationalizations that go with them--more likely.

It's interesting that you mention the religious reactions. That was actually a major area of focus I was wanting to look at: how theology would cope with other forms of life--some would cope well, I think, and some would cope very badly.

Anyway, an area we probably need to work out. Although I don't think that will interfere with the development of your story.

If I go too far afield, let me know.

In terms of the timeline strictures, we'd need to look at what you want to do and when you want to do it and go from there.

I'm less sure of the exact year than I am of what is going on sociologically and (in vague terms) technologically at the time. Basically, a lot of what you see in later OA is still in its relative infancy. Far ahead of where we are now, to be sure, but closer to now than then. That said, I think some of those initial choices, debates, and battles could conceivably set some of the tone for later years. (Though to only a certain degree, considering what happens with the Nanoswarm.)

The Creative Writing sub-forum for the proposal, outlines, drafts, etc. relating to the development of the story. For the tech questions you can either post them to this sub-forum or over on the creative writing one. We'll see em either way and can respond in either spot. Although you might get more responses and ideas on this forum just because some members who are more into the general setting discussion may not pay as much attention to the creative writing section and so miss your post. I'm honestly not sure how everyone interfaces with the forum so am only kind of guessing here

OK...I'll start working on my concept.

Regarding your second point - I don't think I've heard that issue raised before. It sounds interesting. Can you elaborate on it a bit more please?

Todd

It's not an issue so much as it is a personal reaction. It would be dishonest not to admit that change is scary sometimes.