New/Semilurker with questions

[SteelEnsouled]

Hi...

I am still getting used to the ideas in the OA setting, but some ideas that I suspect would fit very early in the timeline have been popping into my mind.

Some beginning questions, though, to find out if they (and I) would indeed be compatible with such a project.

I am not that great in terms of scientific knowledge (another reason for preferring an early setting), and would probably need a lot of patience from people.

Also, I don't think, personally, that I see transhumanist goals as a totally good thing. Perusing the EG seems to suggest a lot of ideological variance within the OA setting, and that not all characters or posters would be expected to agree with each other as long as basic civility is maintained. Would this be a correct assumption?

Another question--early in vec history, I see that they were generally treated as a servant/subservient class. EG does seem to suggest that some bionts would have ignored that and treated vecs as equals, even in the early days...

One more thing: maybe I'm not doing a good job locating it, but I have never found a full history of gender/sex in the OA universe, though I have found a description of what the genders are. IRL the alternate genders you describe often come with genetic disorders. I was wondering if it was ever stated exactly when and how alternate genders became common and for what purpose(s).

[Drashner1]

Hi...

Hi There, Welcome to OA!

Please see my responses below. Others may weigh in as well with their own take on things.

I am not that great in terms of scientific knowledge (another reason for preferring an early setting), and would probably need a lot of patience from people.

It takes all kinds to make our universe The contributing membership of OA ranges from Physics Phds to people who don't have a degree (either yet or at all). Depending on what's being discussed, things may get rather technical or not so much. And we aim to explain the science and tech stuff such that everyone can (hopefully) get at least a fair idea of what's being talked about. We also like to either refer people to additional resources (here or on the web or in print) in some cases. There's no set process really.

Also, I don't think, personally, that I see transhumanist goals as a totally good thing. Perusing the EG seems to suggest a lot of ideological variance within the OA setting, and that not all characters or posters would be expected to agree with each other as long as basic civility is maintained. Would this be a correct assumption?

Yup, that's correct. Within the setting, we tend to take two major approaches to this:

a) There is almost never only one way to do something or one point of view. This is usually shorthanded to "Diversity! Diversity! Diversity!"

b) Ideological neutrality: This basically means that we are fine with saying that some group or political system or even major civilization within the setting feels a certain way about something (religion being the most common example) but that the OA project itself does not take an 'official' position on the rightness of much of anything.

Stepping outside the setting, there are some members here who deeply believe in transhumanism and the Singularity concept and others who things it's all complete BS and will never happen. And lots of folks who fall somewhere in between. The main unifying principle is that we've all agreed that *within the OA setting* that a certain set of assumptions are accurate and in play. For a list of these see our introduction pages:

http://www.orionsarm.com/xcms.php?r=oa-intro

in particular this link here to the Canon:

http://www.orionsarm.com/xcms.php?r=oa-p...=gen_canon

FAQs:

http://www.orionsarm.com/xcms.php?r=oa-faq

And Netiquette (which covers our 'code of conduct' for all getting along nicely):

http://www.orionsarm.com/xcms.php?r=oa-p...netiquette

Some of our discussions can get rather intense. But by and large it's fairly laid back and even in cases where things get intense, it's not uncommon for two people to be arguing vigorously on one thread and in total agreement and backing each other up on another. It seems to work pretty well overall.

Another question--early in vec history, I see that they were generally treated as a servant/subservient class. EG does seem to suggest that some bionts would have ignored that and treated vecs as equals, even in the early days...

Quite probably. To be honest, this entire segment of OA history could use a lot of additional information and expansion. If you're interested in putting some time and attention into this area, more power to you Because this area is relatively undeveloped there is a good bit of potential latitude in how this part of the setting could be described without coming into conflict with already established material. Not that we forbid making changes to existing content - but that sort of thing usually involves a lot more discussion and debate than 'additive changes' that fill in the empty spaces in the setting.

One more thing: maybe I'm not doing a good job locating it, but I have never found a full history of gender/sex in the OA universe, though I have found a description of what the genders are. IRL the alternate genders you describe often come with genetic disorders. I was wondering if it was ever stated exactly when and how alternate genders became common and for what purpose(s).

Not as far as I know. IIRC the closest we come to something like that is this page here:

http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/483ad310bcfd2

Plus we pretty much take it as read that by the 'present day' in the setting (actually for thousands of years before that), it is both possible and routine (at least in some places) for a person to be able to change their gender, sexual orientation, species, and substrate (That is to say the material their brain and body are made from) pretty much at will and with about the same level of social impact that buying a new set of furniture or repainting your house has in the real world (the RL in OA parlance). Of course different cultures in the setting all have their own ideas on how and how much such tech should be used.

OA theoretically is 'about' life 10,000yrs in the future, which means that we've tended to treat a lot of things as just 'read'. However, the timeline nature of the project also means that any particular 'historical' item can also be expanded and developed just as much as stuff set in the 'present day'.

As with the section on vecs, if you (or anyone really) would like to take a shot at fleshing out the history of this aspect of the setting, please feel free to do so

Hope this helps, and if you have any additional questions please feel free to ask, either on this thread or any other thread or sub-forum that you think is most appropriate. And of course feel free to join into any discussions that grab your interest.

Once again, Welcome to OA!

Todd

[stevebowers]

My take on transhumanism is that it is inevitable, unless our civilisation suffers a total and irrevocable collapse; but it is not guaranteed to be a good thing.

One reason to write science fiction and political utopian/dystopian fiction in general is to warn against potential dangers in the future. Works like Brave New World, 1984, We by Yevgeny Zamyatin, and examples of dystopian SF such as The Machine Stops and With Folded Hands all give examples of pitfalls to be avoided, and have been very influential. With a large and diverse setting like OA we can explore all the dystopian scenarios as well as the utopian, and perhaps suggest where high-tech societies can go wrong as well as where they can go right.

[SteelEnsouled]

It takes all kinds to make our universe The contributing membership of OA ranges from Physics Phds to people who don't have a degree (either yet or at all). Depending on what's being discussed, things may get rather technical or not so much. And we aim to explain the science and tech stuff such that everyone can (hopefully) get at least a fair idea of what's being talked about. We also like to either refer people to additional resources (here or on the web or in print) in some cases. There's no set process really.

That's cool to know.

Nailing a characterization, working out sociological and theological implications of things are aspects that come easily to me. The character and the social events I see taking place around her formed up coherently in a matter of hours, though additional refinement is still taking place in my head.

The scientific aspects, the exact placement in the OA timeline...other minutiae of OA lore and making sure that things seen in these early days do not countermand things that happen in later days (or that I don't create weird anachronisms)...that's going to require a lot of help.

I understand that the period until 2113 is governed by strictures against writing that close to the present day, which from my reading of the timeline might present a problem, as I suspect from the state of technology as I am picturing it in my head that I could be awfully close to that line. It would be either the tail end of the Information Age, or the beginning of the Interplanetary Age, most likely.

b) Ideological neutrality: This basically means that we are fine with saying that some group or political system or even major civilization within the setting feels a certain way about something (religion being the most common example) but that the OA project itself does not take an 'official' position on the rightness of much of anything.

So if I correctly understand it, it's OK for a character--including a story narrator--to make absolute and definite statements from their position of belief, and that will be accepted as valid for the sake of the story, but as long as I did not then take that stance and say that no one else was allowed to write otherrwise, then I would be within the rules?

Stepping outside the setting, there are some members here who deeply believe in transhumanism and the Singularity concept and others who things it's all complete BS and will never happen. And lots of folks who fall somewhere in between.

To be honest, some of the outcomes seemed (and some still seem) frightening to me as I read through it.

Then the gears started turning in my head and I started to see how I (or someone I would consider relatable) might react if it did start coming to pass, and realized I might yet have potential for a story that could work. The fact that I did see ideological diversity within the cultures of the story really helped with that.

Quite probably. To be honest, this entire segment of OA history could use a lot of additional information and expansion. If you're interested in putting some time and attention into this area, more power to you Because this area is relatively undeveloped there is a good bit of potential latitude in how this part of the setting could be described without coming into conflict with already established material. Not that we forbid making changes to existing content - but that sort of thing usually involves a lot more discussion and debate than 'additive changes' that fill in the empty spaces in the setting.

I understand that it isn't a good idea for noobs to rock the boat. So you can probably expect a ton of questions which, while they might sound stupid, would be me checking my understanding to make sure I am placing my story in an appropriate period chronologically and not accidentally retconning anything.

Plus we pretty much take it as read that by the 'present day' in the setting (actually for thousands of years before that), it is both possible and routine (at least in some places) for a person to be able to change their gender, sexual orientation, species, and substrate (That is to say the material their brain and body are made from) pretty much at will and with about the same level of social impact that buying a new set of furniture or repainting your house has in the real world (the RL in OA parlance). Of course different cultures in the setting all have their own ideas on how and how much such tech should be used.

I think you probably don't want me writing in that area. I don't feel like I'd be comfortable with or qualified to do so. But I just wanted to see if I had missed something in the EG.

Once again, Welcome to OA!

Todd

Thanks.

[SteelEnsouled]

My take on transhumanism is that it is inevitable, unless our civilisation suffers a total and irrevocable collapse; but it is not guaranteed to be a good thing.

One reason to write science fiction and political utopian/dystopian fiction in general is to warn against potential dangers in the future. Works like Brave New World, 1984, We by Yevgeny Zamyatin, and examples of dystopian SF such as The Machine Stops and With Folded Hands all give examples of pitfalls to be avoided, and have been very influential. With a large and diverse setting like OA we can explore all the dystopian scenarios as well as the utopian, and perhaps suggest where high-tech societies can go wrong as well as where they can go right.

I have actually read a fairly recent dystopian take on transhumanism (and a lot of other social aspects) that also utilizes some of the tech seen in OA, that was another one of the reasons I got to thinking I might write something. The author was clearly as chilled as I am about certain aspects, and in their case pretty much went to battle. While I agreed with a good bit of what he said and did, I was not in agreement with all of his social premises and found myself thinking there might be a different way I could approach it if I were to write something.

[stevebowers]

The Silicon Generation is supposed to consist of escaped and feral robots and vecs which have overcome their imperatives.
http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/47f6c8fdc8e1a

This implies that there must still have been a certain amount of repression of vecs by humans or bionts in the First Federation era, despite its formal name of the Federation of Hu and AI. There might appear to be a dissonance here, since the First Fed is supposed to have been a partnership between humans and artificials; why would vecs need to escape from this situation? This can be explained by looking at the location of Cog, 70 ly from Sol. If the first vec colony ship from Sol travelled at a fairly modest (for the time) 0.2c, it will have been en route since 1055 AT, at which time the First Federation was still very new and vec rights were probably a contentious issue in some locations.

[stevebowers]

By the time we get to the formation of the Metasoft Version Tree, the vecs were always equal partners with the bionts involved in this House/Corporation; over a relatively short time period the vecs simply became the majority shareholders, peacefully taking the running of this exploration/colonisation corp.

[SteelEnsouled]

I had picked up from the top-level article on vecs that they and splices experienced the most repression problems--with the vecs seeming to have gone through it for the longest, comparatively speaking. I would imagine, given that I read for a time law limited robots to pre-sophont levels, that even when the restrictions were lifted (or accidentally violated--as I doubt the controls intended to prevent sophonce would be 100% effective), there may have even been a period when vecs were bought and sold as property even after they did come into full sophonce.

I don't know how feasible this is, but I had a very clear image in my head from my character's childhood where her mother truly comes to comprehend, to her shock and horror, that the domestic help she has purchased is a being every bit her equal and she has just engaged in the act of buying a person off the block. And now she has to figure out how to deal with this unconscionable situation without putting her family or the vec caught in the middle of this at risk.

(Even if it was publicly known, factually, what turingrade really meant, we see from history that people have denied the inherent value of others not like them even when the evidence was right in their faces--stuff like calling other races "subhuman." It would not surprise me for early bionts to have pulled a similar stunt against the vecs--made worse by the fact that they created the vecs and would have felt entitled to it.)

The story will ultimately focus on the daughter rather than the mother--but that would be a huge formative incident for a young child, to see a parent take a stand like that. Her upbringing would also be influenced by the experience with the vec, whom I suspect she considers either a close family friend, or outright family. (I'd pictured the vec playing a critical part in her upbringing, since what had originally occasioned the girl's mother to make this purchase was the loss of her husband--either he died or left her, not sure which. The article on Parental Vecs grabbed my attention in this regard, too, especially the statement about cases where the vec knew best but was forced to watch silently as the biont parent undermined their work or did things outright detrimental to their charge. That suggested sentient-rights problems in at least some portion of OA history.)

[stevebowers]

The old concept of slavery in Roman society was that the slave was a so-called 'speaking tool' (instrumentum vocale), and the slave-owner would rely on the fact that their slave was fully sophont and could act on its own initiative. This could easily be the case in some locations during the Late Interplanetary Age, and all through the Dark Ages until the Early Federation. Other periods of slavery and enforced obedience have definitely occured at other times and places in the long history of the Terragen Sphere.

Note that the mental architecture of vecs and AIs is likely to be very diverse; some quite sophisticated vec and AI minds could be partially slaved or asimoved;
Asimovec - http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/47e86f053ba0f
Slaved AI - http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/478589c0a46e2
and even slaved hyperturings, transapients who are constrained to obey lesser beings
http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/49abc9e77c5a2

[Drashner1]

The scientific aspects, the exact placement in the OA timeline...other minutiae of OA lore and making sure that things seen in these early days do not countermand things that happen in later days (or that I don't create weird anachronisms)...that's going to require a lot of help.

No worries - we're happy to help with that sort of thing and in some cases there are particular members who have an interest in a particular area and can act as a resource or resident expert. Just ask for what you need help with and we can lend a hand.

I understand that the period until 2113 is governed by strictures against writing that close to the present day, which from my reading of the timeline might present a problem, as I suspect from the state of technology as I am picturing it in my head that I could be awfully close to that line. It would be either the tail end of the Information Age, or the beginning of the Interplanetary Age, most likely.

Stories have a bit more flexibility in this regard (or in regard to the setting in general) because they are presumably relating what the characters think/believe/experience not necessarily the 'facts' of the setting that the EG lays out. Canon is a bit more restricted, mainly in terms of physics (if your characters are going to be flying around in a tachyon drive FTL starship we're going to have a problem ), but we can discuss any potential issues.

In terms of the timeline strictures, we'd need to look at what you want to do and when you want to do it and go from there.

So if I correctly understand it, it's OK for a character--including a story narrator--to make absolute and definite statements from their position of belief, and that will be accepted as valid for the sake of the story, but as long as I did not then take that stance and say that no one else was allowed to write otherrwise, then I would be within the rules?

Pretty much yes. Characters can pretty much do/say what they need/want to make a good story. An author tract in the form of a story gets trickier, but again will depend on the subject matter and circumstances. As always, the best approach is to present the idea(s) to the forum and see what folks say.

To be honest, some of the outcomes seemed (and some still seem) frightening to me as I read through it.

Hm. Which outcomes? Just curious and, separate from any stories, this sort of thing can make for interesting discussions and sometimes new ideas or refinement of existing ones.

I understand that it isn't a good idea for noobs to rock the boat. So you can probably expect a ton of questions which, while they might sound stupid, would be me checking my understanding to make sure I am placing my story in an appropriate period chronologically and not accidentally retconning anything.

Noobs rocking the boat is how some of our most cherished ideas got here

Please feel free to rock away, although I can't guarantee that anything will change as a result. Also, be prepared to remind me/us that I said this. Also, how an idea is presented can also have a major impact on how it is received. And sometimes we need some time to process something to see a way it could work or fit into the setting. Gentle prodding or request/reminders to 'think on it a bit and see if there's a way to make this work' can go a long way

Todd