Rogue Rings stevebowers Administrator Posts: 9,978 Threads: 403 Joined: Apr 2013 04-03-2021, 07:19 PM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2021, 03:27 AM by stevebowers.) Could we go back to first principles for a moment? This extraordinarily large object, which I'm currently imagining as a very large toroidal Ederworld, has a radius of 40.85 AU. Is this a random radius, or have you chosen this for a reason? Because gathering 13.66 solar masses would be a daunting task, even for the Terragens - they would need to disassemble at least one large star, and cool it down to planetary temperatures - this would emit a vast amount of heat, since the central part of the star would be at millions of degrees kelvin. The waste heat of construction would be something like a small supernova. Could we not make it smaller, while making it considerably more mobile. The amount of thrust required to get this object up to 10%c would also require nova-level power, and the object would require a lot of braking at the destination, as well. Vitto Senior Member Posts: 475 Threads: 15 Joined: Sep 2020 04-03-2021, 10:56 PM Quote:This extraordinarily large object, which I'm currently imagining as a very large toroidal Ederworld, has a radius of 40.85 AU. Is this a random radius, or have you chosen this for a reason? Because gathering 13.66 solar masses would be a daunting task, even for the Terragens - they would need to disassemble at least one large star, and cool it down to planetary temperatures - this would emit a vast amount of heat, since the central part of the star would be at millions of degrees kelvin. The waste heat of construction would be something like a small supernova. Would a grazer do the job in a reasonable amount of time? I presume also that you need to process basically all that mass into a DWIZ to obtain heavier elements. A very big DWIZ. Quote:The amount of thrust required to get this object up to 10c would also require nova-level power, and the object would require a lot of braking at the destination, as well. I see that the FTL thread is leaking Semi-professional threads diverter. Drashner1 Administrator Posts: 13,139 Threads: 654 Joined: Sep 2012 04-03-2021, 11:30 PM Short on time atm, but a few things: a) You could indeed use a grazer to both take stars apart fairly quickly and transport the material to wherever more or less 'instantly' (allowing for the limitations of OA's wormholes). b) We should probably try to come to some consensus or math based numbers about just how much material you can actually get from taking stars apart and transmuting them via whatever means. Both in relation to this idea and on general principles. c) The waste energy from the transmutation process and whatever else could be used for a variety of things, such as the creation of magmatter support structures (does this construct assume magmatter? I don't know that it could exist otherwise, but don't see a mention on details of tensile strength and such), and/or a Matrioshka swarm to absorb the energy and use it for computation, perhaps just temporarily (gives new meaning to the term 'flash drive' ). The swarm(s) might also run the project to some degree - or just run some simulations or sell processing cycles to others around the setting as a value add or the like. d) Based on the way OA has historically described megaprojects, this project would take thousands of years to complete - which would spread the energy output out over a good bit of time instead of being a nova flash per se. Similarly, if the project is drawing on multiple locations for materials and such, that will also spread the waste energy out and reduce the intensity of any single given point. e) I'm not sure how practical it is to actually have this whole thing moving through space - especially with grazers available. But if that is a thing that is really desired, there would need to be some reason provided for while such tech (as well as magmatter) isn't used. Finally, and as previously mentioned - I think this works better as a work in progress or being in the design phase or the like rather then a finished project in Y11k. We tend to treat almost everything in the setting as a past event from the perspective of 10,600 AT and that is somewhat limiting and leaves a blank spot in terms of what things are like 'now' in the setting. Things like even bigger megastructures being created or contemplated can help fill that in a bit. Ok - off to start the day. Todd Bear Senior Member Posts: 572 Threads: 33 Joined: Dec 2014 04-04-2021, 06:39 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2021, 06:45 AM by Bear.) There's no compelling reason for the particular size that applies outside the story I initially had in mind.  I was looking for a way to construct a contiguous ISO that housed in a single, gravitationally-stable structure the entirety of an S:4 archailect.   I had a long look at the "what physical size is the computronium and supporting material of an S:4 mind" and started doing math from there.   Although this does require a stupid amount of matter, the same can be said of every S:4 or S:5 mind in the entire setting.  This ISO was to be distinguished as a (possibly insane) S:4 entity that absolutely refused to depend on wormholes,  spacetime metric distortions, and existence as physically separate parts. However, outside the context of that story, there's no reason for the size.  If someone is developing it as a world that modosophonts live on, a local transapient isn't strictly necessary. Bear Senior Member Posts: 572 Threads: 33 Joined: Dec 2014 04-04-2021, 07:00 AM I had not intended to propose accelerating the final structure to 10% c after it is built. I was proposing that since a Rogue Ring is not tied to a solar system, building it at a rapidly-moving construction site could both be a cost savings and limit the resource impact of its construction. If we suppose that construction materials during interstellar shipment may travel at 10% c , it is better to have the construction site moving at something near that velocity, from the outset. That way we don't have to spend the energy to decelerate shipments from that speed as they arrive. Shipment transit delays can be much shorter, and no single system or star need be destroyed, because as the work is underway the construction site will pass near many systems. Shipments of matter from those systems can make a short transfer as it passes by. The alternative would be sending everything on a lightyears-long journey to a stationary construction site where it will arrive with an enormous energy cost for deceleration, and that simply doesn't seem like a winning idea. selden Editor Posts: 1,513 Threads: 70 Joined: Mar 2013 04-04-2021, 07:33 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2021, 07:51 AM by selden.) Have you estimated how much energy would be needed to accelerate an appropriate share of the mass needed for construction and how much mass and energy might be provided by nearby systems? I’m wondering how much overhead would be required, in addition to that directly involved. (Construction of appropriate accelerating structures, the construction bots, mining to build the latter, etc.) In Y11K it should be “easy” to handwave overheads that seem reasonable, but I’m wondering if individual inhabited systems might be unwilling or even unable to contribute a significant amount as opposed to systems which were being “strip mined”. ETA: presumably the project would take centuries, involving many systems along the initial flight path. Perhaps the availability of systems with appropriate resources might even determine that path. ETA 2: if a particular path or direction is important, finding appropriate initial systems might be a substantial project in itself. Of course, again, it wouldn’t be too hard to handwave that search. Selden Bear Senior Member Posts: 572 Threads: 33 Joined: Dec 2014 04-04-2021, 08:39 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2021, 08:46 AM by Bear.) I think a lot of it could be made simpler by a course near 'developing' or 'to-be-developed' systems.  If the construction company (or whatever) shows up and offers the locals a deal like, "we'll build the stellar-laser systems you need to launch and decelerate shipping from all over the galaxy, and get you on the beamrider network, in exchange for these three tiny, rocky dwarf planets way the hell out in your Oort cloud,"  I think there'd be a lot of takers. Key is getting to places before they're significantly developed.  If you're in a system where they've already found important uses for those ice dwarfs, and already built their stellaser and beamrider network stations, the bargain is less compelling, and then you're just buying a few loads of materials on the open market. In fact, if located on a lonely but auspicious route, the construction company might be in the business of developing that infrastructure in entirely undeveloped systems and then selling the value-added systems to colonists.  Among other things, it would build a long line of new frontiers VERY STRONGLY CONNECTED via beamrider network - sure to attract all kinds of traffic and trade year after year over the next few millennia, and how awesome is that? stevebowers Administrator Posts: 9,978 Threads: 403 Joined: Apr 2013 04-04-2021, 07:56 PM I think S:4s can be considerably smaller than that. S:3s are moon-brain sized, on average; S:4s are Jupiter brains and larger, unless I'm missing something. Vitto Senior Member Posts: 475 Threads: 15 Joined: Sep 2020 04-04-2021, 09:18 PM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2021, 09:19 PM by Vitto.) Quote:This ISO was to be distinguished as a (possibly insane) S:4 entity that absolutely refused to depend on wormholes,  spacetime metric distortions, and existence as physically separate parts. Well, I guess that fit the definition of "Slow God" I always wondered if the others archai consider them as the equivalent of "hippies" Quote:Have you estimated how much energy would be needed to accelerate an appropriate share of the mass needed for construction and how much mass and energy might be provided by nearby systems? I’m wondering how much overhead would be required, in addition to that directly involved. (Construction of appropriate accelerating structures, the construction bots, mining to build the latter, etc.) If a grazer is infolved then we have only to spend the energy to accelerate one of its mouth, right? Is that possible for an inflated mouth or not? If we want to accelerate this thing to 10%c  then the whole thing could soon or later belong among the transgalactic traveling megastructures (e.g. the Leviathan)? Maybe it could be inspired by those in purpose? Semi-professional threads diverter. Bear Senior Member Posts: 572 Threads: 33 Joined: Dec 2014 04-05-2021, 12:53 AM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2021, 12:54 AM by Bear.) Apropos of nearly nothing, has anyone thought seriously about whether something like a 'grazer' could harvest material from a neutron star?  Could such a thing exist? 'Neutrons' aren't atoms, strictly speaking; liberated from the context of a neutron star, they'd do some pretty energetic things on the way to a renewed existence as baryonic matter.   I ask because of the transmutation question raised earlier w/r/t stellar grazers, where Hydrogen and (especially) Helium aren't particularly useful as construction materials.  Neutrons lack an atomic number altogether. I don't even know what forces would govern the choice of what elements they eventually become as baryonic matter. « Next Oldest | Next Newest »

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