Religious tolerance intolerance?

[Steel Accord]

So, I recently got back into World of Warcraft and with the upcoming expansion, I was considering starting a new guild once it comes out.

Now, to my understanding, running a guild is not easy, nor even starting one. So I thought I'd post an idea of it on the WoW forums before trying it out for real.

My idea was actually based on one of the Sephirotics, namely the Sophic League. I wanted a guild where the emphasis was on inter-religious cooperation and spiritual exploration while fleshing out the various members character arcs.

However, when I posted it, one of my first comments was,

"you can not be seriously inviting people who are on opposing sides to be civil and discuss things they might be very passionate about. It is a very noble effort to encourage peace and understanding between the various races and religious beliefs and cultures. But it won't work"

Really? Because . . . isn't that kind of what we do? I mean, is this person really that skeptical of human nature that in NO EXISTING CONTEXT can people get together and discuss their beliefs without wanting to rip each other's eyes out?

[Drashner1]

The person in question is apparently really that skeptical, although context can be important and you can't know to what degree they thought about it before posting their response.

Speaking just in terms of the RL, there are various interdenominational and inter-faith organizations, conferences, and whatnot that do attempt to promote civil discussion and inter-religious cooperation, with varying degrees of success. However, these are either generally just taken for granted (when was the last time you heard about people from two different Christian denominations killing each other over that fact?), or get little or no attention against the metaphorical roar of the various conflicts in the world that either have a religious dimension or are routinely spun that way by various news organizations that find it a convenient 'handle' to use when presenting the story.

Speaking in terms of OA, we have various factors or mechanisms that help to promote a more dispassionate or distant viewpoint when addressing issues of politics or religion. Not least of which is our official policy of 'metaphysical neutrality'. Also that we discuss the setting in terms of creating it, not actively 'living' in it vs. WoW which is kind of the opposite as I understand it - players 'live' as their characters in game and so it's perhaps more personal to them. With OA, it's generally pretty clear that it is fiction and fiction designed to explore new ideas.

My 2c worth,

Todd

[Steel Accord]

The person in question is apparently really that skeptical, although context can be important and you can't know to what degree they thought about it before posting their response.

Speaking just in terms of the RL, there are various interdenominational and inter-faith organizations, conferences, and whatnot that do attempt to promote civil discussion and inter-religious cooperation, with varying degrees of success. However, these are either generally just taken for granted (when was the last time you heard about people from two different Christian denominations killing each other over that fact?), or get little or no attention against the metaphorical roar of the various conflicts in the world that either have a religious dimension or are routinely spun that way by various news organizations that find it a convenient 'handle' to use when presenting the story.

Speaking in terms of OA, we have various factors or mechanisms that help to promote a more dispassionate or distant viewpoint when addressing issues of politics or religion. Not least of which is our official policy of 'metaphysical neutrality'. Also that we discuss the setting in terms of creating it, not actively 'living' in it vs. WoW which is kind of the opposite as I understand it - players 'live' as their characters in game and so it's perhaps more personal to them. With OA, it's generally pretty clear that it is fiction and fiction designed to explore new ideas.

My 2c worth,

Todd

Very true, on all points, I mean we hear about bad news because good news is just what we expect to happen.

You are particularly correct because WoW has different types of servers, the one I'm proposing in is an RP server for role play. So the idea of one's avatars "living" in that world is all the more poignant.

[Dalex]

Oh WoW RP server. This brings back memories. Anyway the problem with inter-faith organizations or in general any organization that promotes understanding between two very different points of view is that it's very hard to actually get people talking and solving problems. Because most of the time the things will just stay the way they were and all you get are empty phrases.

Imagine not-religion example say anti-GMO and pretty much all of scientific community. If you got them into one room it is very, very unlikely that any of them will go out with different view than they had before. At best they will not shout at each other.
No argument from scientist will convince you average GMO hater (booo Monsanto pays yo!) and no argument from GMO hater will convince scientist (OMG That study was refuted 15 times). The views of both parties are incompatible to such degree that any arguments from one side will be irrelevant to the other.

It is similar with religion. While leaders can talk and end the meeting on a good note. The truth is that views of different religious groups are incompatible.
Most Christians believe that Jesus was son of God and most Muslims believe he was just a prophet. In addition to that the general way they understand God and divinity is different. Main theme for Muslims is obedience, for Christians it's mercy (please I know it's simplification but the overall tone of the respective scriptures is very clear and even though most don't act according to it the meme affects their behavior in some way).


But back to your WoW guild. In Azeroth the beliefs and religions are much more compatible than on Terra. Everyone knows Titans exist, everyone knows Old gods exist, everyone knows the Elements exist and everyone knows that the Burning Legion exists. While allegiance differs the existence of respective deities can not be disputed. In a way every one is member of the same meta-religion.

For example my paladin and some orc shaman both believe in in different things. But neither of them can say that others deity doesn't exist. Therefore they have at least one thing they can agree on and so can start to form a deeper connection.

In OA the situation is similar. The God-emperor exists and so does the Judge. Their followers can disagree about validity of each others philosophies but they can not deny others deities power and existence.

I would write more but I'm out of time.

[Steel Accord]

No, you make a good point on all accounts. My eyes have always had a rose tint to them, so while people may not be outright converted, I believe people can talk and at least learn about the other person's faith or personal interpretations there of.

You make the point that I firmly state that an inter-religious and spiritually explorative guild might actually work better on Azeroth because all devout have very visible or otherwise observable examples of their objects of worship's existence, Elune, the Holy Light, the Titans, etc. So a guild were religious people of all races and creeds get together just to discuss the finer philosophical points and help one another with their personal findings seems more likely to succeed and manage than one in the real world. (In theory anyway. In my personal experience, people of different faiths have been unfailingly civil with one another and the most aggressive people at the table were the atheists. That's my experience though.)

My original posting was because it just shocked me that someone said "you cannot expect people."

Why can't I? Isn't a person intelligent? Wouldn't a roleplayer who's given such aspects as their character's religion extensive thought be expected to be reasonable and open to discussion?

[stevebowers]

The AI Gods, that is to say the Archai, have a very visible presence in the Terragen Sphere, making their existence the subject of very little doubt (except maybe in some isolated colonies). But that doesn't mean the end of relious debate; there are many different strains of religion among the modosophonts that are not concerned with the archailects, or sometimes incorporate the archailects as subordinate deities in a much larger theological belief system. There is plenty of room for theological strife in the Terragen Sphere, even most of it happens a little outside the region of direct influence of the archai.

[Steel Accord]

The AI Gods, that is to say the Archai, have a very visible presence in the Terragen Sphere, making their existence the subject of very little doubt (except maybe in some isolated colonies). But that doesn't mean the end of relious debate; there are many different strains of religion among the modosophonts that are not concerned with the archailects, or sometimes incorporate the archailects as subordinate deities in a much larger theological belief system. There is plenty of room for theological strife in the Terragen Sphere, even most of it happens a little outside the region of direct influence of the archai.

Yeah I got that from reading the Codex and I think it's actually kind of cool. Just as a Gnostic Catholic, I would certainly incorporate the Archai into my belief system. God created the universe as is and may even be working through them at various points just as He works through people.

I think the whole idea of Archaitheology is a brilliant part of this setting as it seems completely natural. Rather than the "outgrown silly superstitions" thing Roddenberry was trumpeting, which had some rather insulting undertones to religious people.

I mean, for those of us here, who at least can educatedly fathom what these minds are capable of, they make what most conventional religions call "god-like" seem laughable by comparison!

So, religions or similar institutions forming around them, seems perfectly logical.

[Drashner1]

The AI Gods, that is to say the Archai, have a very visible presence in the Terragen Sphere, making their existence the subject of very little doubt (except maybe in some isolated colonies). But that doesn't mean the end of relious debate; there are many different strains of religion among the modosophonts that are not concerned with the archailects, or sometimes incorporate the archailects as subordinate deities in a much larger theological belief system. There is plenty of room for theological strife in the Terragen Sphere, even most of it happens a little outside the region of direct influence of the archai.

Even within the areas that are directly within the influence of the archai, I imagine vigorous religious debate is both possible and perhaps even encouraged. What isn't possible is acting against anyone for having different beliefs. Not just in religion, but in any aspect of life that isn't directly against the law of the ruling transapient. Do what thou wilt, as long as you don't hurt anyone is probably the norm in many places.

If you don't like how your neighbors live you can choose to not socialize with them - but you can't do very much else. This assumes you care, since the archai likely create societies in which people generally aren't overly bothered by differences. A lot of societal problems probably stem from fear - and modosophonts in the Civilized Galaxy generally have very little to be afraid of.

Todd

[iancampbell]

I'm not sure whether this has been explored, but how well known is Terragen history to its inhabitants, particularly the modos? We, the creators of the setting, know that the archailects (or their earlier selves, at any rate) were created by modos, specifically human-derived ones - but do the inhabitants?

And how would this affect archai worship? After all, it may well be rather difficult to feel religious awe for an entity for which you know your species was responsible. This doesn't preclude behaviour that would possibly look much like today's religious worship, directed towards the archai but for purely pragmatic reasons; but many modos would know perfectly well there's nothing supernatural about them.

This is not to say that religion would not be affected by the presence of minds that are completely incomprehensible. Of course it would. The availability of something rather close to immortality to most modos in setting would alter religion drastically, too.

[Drashner1]

While modos created the original AIs that eventually became the archailects, they didn't actually create either the early transapients or the archailects themselves and presumably don't understand/can't comprehend how the archai accomplished this in any great detail.

As far as feeling religious awe (or not) - I would suspect/suggest that archai worship has more in common with Buddhism in that the archai might be seen as having achieved some form of enlightenment or nirvana. Or that the archai are the face/voice of God/the Gods on Earth. Or that they are the Second Coming (or the Third, Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Coming). Or that they are the Prophet(s) of either a new religion or an existing one.

Basically, it may not be the worship of beings that are considered to be literally supernatural, but that they are the 'front end' for something that is or that their Transcendence is as a result of gaining an understanding of the Truth/the Great Secrets/Whatever/.

Or they may even say that they archai are not supernatural, and are therefore not made up, but are in fact The One True God(s) (depending on which archai worshipers you ask) because they are literally real and have come into being to bring Order/Light/Wisdom/Truth/Whatever to the universe. After all, in terms of power and wisdom they are pretty much equal to or beyond the gods humans have worshiped or worship now. At least their followers would say so.

Todd