Mars city question

[stevebowers]

Excellent!

[Drashner1]

My understanding is that so far it has not been possible to create self-sustaining, closed environments here on Earth, so I have to doubt that they’ll happen quickly on Mars. The Biosphere projects failed for many different reasons, including the build-up of toxins, for example.

Certainly the creation of a truly closed, self-sustaining biosphere ala the Biosphere 2 attempt some years back is beyond our current or (most likely) near term abilities. But getting a Mars base to the point where it can grow its own food (at least in principle), source its water from the planet, and produce its own air should be doable with tech that is less advanced than what a full on 'Biosphere Mars' would require. Also producing its own rocket fuel/reaction mass is something that Zubrin has discussed a good bit IIRC.

Working to minimize (or even eventually eliminate) the need for shipments from Earth seems like a worthwhile goal. Along with developing tech to reduce the cost and travel time of getting to/from the planets.

Todd

[selden]

Certainly minimizing the need for support from Earth is essential, but the smallness of the environment does make the control of toxin sources, including molds, very important. Toxic molds have been detected on both
Mir and the ISS, for example, although in very small concentrations so far.

See https://cfpub.epa.gov/si/si_public_file_..._id=491399

[dangerous_safety]

While completely isolated self sustaining ecosystems may currently be beyond our grasp, it doesn't mean we can't come close. While not fully closed off, vivariums (aquariums, terrariums, etc) can be made to be fairly self reliant in terms of their ecosystems. Techniques from these smaller scale setups could be potentially helpful when designing primitive biospheres for Mars, or even just managing agricultural biota.

Another potential aid in helping to make sustainable ecosystems more viable are the ongoing development of environmental technologies. Again, these are obviously not self contained, but the techniques we learn from those endevours may help in better managing a future Martian biosphere.

[Drashner1]

Certainly minimizing the need for support from Earth is essential, but the smallness of the environment does make the control of toxin sources, including molds, very important. Toxic molds have been detected on both
Mir and the ISS, for example, although in very small concentrations so far.

See https://cfpub.epa.gov/si/si_public_file_..._id=491399

True - but this is going to be the case in any space based environment (or even moderately sealed off Earth environment) that has to operate for anything more than a few days. Learning how to control this sort of thing on ISS or other space stations can contribute know how to learning how to control it on a Mars mission and in an eventual Mars base/colony. Which in turn will lead to know how for more ambitious missions all the way up to the interstellar.

Coming at this from a different direction - toxic molds are a thing even on Earth in the most open ecosystem we've got. We just didn't know about them for most of human history.

Todd

[stevebowers]

Later in the scenario, molds would be targetted by nanotech, synano or biotech swarms designed specifically to combat these organisms. The mold would supply at least some of the energy required for the replication of the anti-mold swarm. On the other hand, swarms and sporetech might become so commonplace in the future that feral swarms may become an accepted part of everyday life- assuming that artificial swarms can be guaranteed to be free from health hazards.

Taking this further, given suitably advanced medical technology, even molds that cause problems to current-day humans might be tolerable. The environment in some locations in the far future might be far from sterile, but some sophonts might like that.

[Vitto]

While completely isolated self sustaining ecosystems may currently be beyond our grasp, it doesn't mean we can't come close

But would a colony on Mars be really a closed enviroment? If it is just a scientific mission for "plant the flag" or a demostrator for a Earth-Mars transport then I guess it could be completely close, relatively speaking.
Instead, if we are talking of a true colony, with the goal to grow and expand, I guess you should have in place all the tech to extract (at least) CHNO from the enviroment and replenish any shortage in your base.
I admit that refining trace elments to produce things like processors or sensor could be a problem without a refinery.

Toxic molds have been detected on both Mir and the ISS, for example, although in very small concentrations so far.

In the worst case scenario I guess you could flush the atmosphere and freeze/dehydrate to death the bastard.

But getting a Mars base to the point where it can grow its own food (at least in principle), source its water from the planet, and produce its own air should be doable with tech that is less advanced than what a full on 'Biosphere Mars' would require.

If you work with aeroponics, if we'll use that to grow food and not something more pratical like a in-vitro system, you can probably remove almost any toxin with a good membrane in your working fluid.
Solid wastes can be incinerated so you should be good with that too unless your toxins are atomic in nature (e.g.: arsenicum).

[iancampbell]

While completely isolated self sustaining ecosystems may currently be beyond our grasp, it doesn't mean we can't come close

But would a colony on Mars be really a closed enviroment? If it is just a scientific mission for "plant the flag" or a demostrator for a Earth-Mars transport then I guess it could be completely close, relatively speaking.
Instead, if we are talking of a true colony, with the goal to grow and expand, I guess you should have in place all the tech to extract (at least) CHNO from the enviroment and replenish any shortage in your base.
I admit that refining trace elments to produce things like processors or sensor could be a problem without a refinery.

Toxic molds have been detected on both Mir and the ISS, for example, although in very small concentrations so far.

In the worst case scenario I guess you could flush the atmosphere and freeze/dehydrate to death the bastard.

But getting a Mars base to the point where it can grow its own food (at least in principle), source its water from the planet, and produce its own air should be doable with tech that is less advanced than what a full on 'Biosphere Mars' would require.

If you work with aeroponics, if we'll use that to grow food and not something more pratical like a in-vitro system, you can probably remove almost any toxin with a good membrane in your working fluid.
Solid wastes can be incinerated so you should be good with that too unless your toxins are atomic in nature (e.g.: arsenicum).

It's also possible to separate toxins (so they can be safely stored) using biological mechanisms; it might not even be necessary to do any bioengineering to achieve that. A good example is milk vetch, which is very good at extracting selenium from the soil.

Assorted toxins can be removed by bioremediation:

Bioremediation - Wikipedia

Frontiers | Potential Biotechnological Strategies for the Cleanup of Heavy Metals and Metalloids | Plant Science (frontiersin.org)

[selden]

One of the sets of problems for initial colonization will be to provide all the on-site support needed to solve potential problems which would be fatal if they have to wait for solutions that could be six months or more away.

After the fact, of course, many people will complain about all the “waste” of sending equipment and consumables that were never needed.

[Vitto]

While completely isolated self sustaining ecosystems may currently be beyond our grasp, it doesn't mean we can't come close

But would a colony on Mars be really a closed enviroment? If it is just a scientific mission for "plant the flag" or a demostrator for a Earth-Mars transport then I guess it could be completely close, relatively speaking.
Instead, if we are talking of a true colony, with the goal to grow and expand, I guess you should have in place all the tech to extract (at least) CHNO from the enviroment and replenish any shortage in your base.
I admit that refining trace elments to produce things like processors or sensor could be a problem without a refinery.

Toxic molds have been detected on both Mir and the ISS, for example, although in very small concentrations so far.

In the worst case scenario I guess you could flush the atmosphere and freeze/dehydrate to death the bastard.

But getting a Mars base to the point where it can grow its own food (at least in principle), source its water from the planet, and produce its own air should be doable with tech that is less advanced than what a full on 'Biosphere Mars' would require.

If you work with aeroponics, if we'll use that to grow food and not something more pratical like a in-vitro system, you can probably remove almost any toxin with a good membrane in your working fluid.
Solid wastes can be incinerated so you should be good with that too unless your toxins are atomic in nature (e.g.: arsenicum).

It's also possible to separate toxins (so they can be safely stored) using biological mechanisms; it might not even be necessary to do any bioengineering to achieve that. A good example is milk vetch, which is very good at extracting selenium from the soil.

Assorted toxins can be removed by bioremediation:

Bioremediation - Wikipedia

Frontiers | Potential Biotechnological Strategies for the Cleanup of Heavy Metals and Metalloids | Plant Science (frontiersin.org)

Got a biotech degree so I know the argument discretly well. A problem with bioremediation is that is NOT intensive, at least using the classical microrganism or plants/algae, so IMHO it's really not viable in a compact base where space is scarce. Dedicating plants to remove toxins from your effluent is a real waste if you're not to eating them, again IMHO.

Still, it is indeed dirty cheap for what it does: removing heavy metals from a soil in an industrial setting would be an expensive pain in the ass. Collecting plants, burning them and vitrifing their ashes is much better from the point of view of the bottom line
 
Anyway, using biobased products to do the job is entirely possible if you use purified enzymes so you can get an increase in volumetric productivity of a few order of magnitueds.

I presume that an advanced purification plant could remove any molecular toxin without any problem so the deal is with the toxic elements: you could remove those using affinity ligands (reusable), or turn them into insoluble compounds, or filter them through an appropiate membrane. Not necessary with a biotech method.

One of the sets of problems for initial colonization will be to provide all the on-site support needed to solve potential problems which would be fatal if they have to wait for solutions that could be six months or more away.

After the fact, of course, many people will complain about all the “waste” of sending equipment and consumables that were never needed.

You would be mad to start colonization without one or more rescue package in close orbit ready to deploy in case of trouble. If you need something critical from Earth you're screwed the time it get there...