Singularity levels and their limitations

[turoni]

I've just read the primer singularity page and I was wondering what the rules are regarding these godlike creatures.
The hard science aspect of this site seems to ask for a good explanation if you want to incorporate things in your story.
Yet if I'm allowed to use an S6 'sophont' (is that the correct usage?) he should be able to rewrite laws of physics.
A quick skim trough the toposophy page didn't solve my query.

So how are these singularities used in stories?

[stevebowers]

Even S:6 Greatest Archailects can't really rewrite the laws of physics, although they can bend them to a remarkable degree. If, for instance, a S:6 creates a baby universe, we generally accept that the laws of physics inside that universe could be 'tweaked' somewhat, to create an environment that is different from our own. In OA canon we tend to think that an artificial universe which can be initiated within our universe would have conditions fairly similar to our own, so that a kind of mild evolution of universes takes place. So baby universes with large numbers of macroscopic dimensions are ruled out, for example. But since the modosophont population of OA do not have access to these locations, this is really just speculation and hearsay.

In practice I'd expect that a modosophont observer watching an archailect performing 'miracles' would be convinced that the archailect could control space-time pretty thoroughly.

[Drashner1]

Lots of parts to an answer to these questions. In no particular order:

1) 'Sophont' works as an umbrella term for any thinking/self-aware entity in the setting from baseline humans (like thee and me) on up to S6 AI Gods). More commonly, we use the term 'transapient' as a catch-all term for anything S1 or higher and 'archailect' (plural = archai) for anything S4 or higher. S3 are sometimes called 'Godlings' and its common for S4 and above to be referred to as 'gods' - including being worshiped as such in some parts of Terragen civilization.

2) None of the transapients, even the S6 can 'rewrite the laws of physics.' However, within the laws of physics they can do some pretty spectacular things.

3) Regarding S6 capabilities, the first thing to note is that a given transapient S-level can do everything the lower S-levels can do (both mentally and technologically) and can do it better. Plus a range of abilities or technologies that only first manifest at their S-level.

I don't have time to get into all the lower transapient abilities atm, but these pages should help you get started:

Link

Look for things like Foresight, Oversight, Translogic, and Ideogenesis. Also Perception Hacking. Note that these are only examples of some of the full range of transapient capacities. Each of these first appears at the S1 level.

Link

Brain sizes and processing power for minds S0-S3 - we still need to write up entries for S4 and S5 and are still working on the parameters for S6. Part of a project I'll be starting next year.

In terms of creative ability - it is commonly said in OA that creating an AI (a fully sophont mind equivalent to a human) requires a level of effort along the lines of:

S0 = writing a full length novel.

S1 = writing a 10 page college English paper

S2 = writing a 1 page college essay.

S3 = writing a single sentence.

S4 = writing a one syllable word.

S5 = their random thoughts can become so complex and involved that they evolve sophonce, form complex civilizations, live long and full lives (subjectively speaking) and are then reabsorbed into the overmind that created them.

S6 = all of sephirotic civilization may be a figment of their imagination. No one knows for sure.

Focusing more on the technologies that transapients and archai can invent see this page here:

Link

In terms of specific S6 technology (invented by S6 and not understandable by lower S-levels), examples would include:

Void Ships and the most advanced Void Factories
The most advanced wormholes and weylforges
Tipler Oracles and basement universes
Implosion Weapons
Shatterbombs
Thunderbolts
W-brains

Note however that they also can do everything that all the lower S-levels can do and do it better.

Finally, in terms of stories - S5 and S6 level minds and the civilizations/infrastructure they create are probably more often treated as 'part of the background' since they are so big and powerful and overarching, although that isn't always the case. This is also a constant ongoing and evolving process within the OA project, so new examples could appear at any time.

Some examples in which high level archai play a role (and yes, all of these are hard science and no - none of them involve rewriting physical laws:

A Minor Demonstration of Power

A Transapient's Lie

Dragon's Teeth

Infanticide -Version 1 or Version 2

Vendetta

Vagabond

We tend to do more stories involving lower level transapients, to be honest.

For a full list of OA stories, see Here. Please note that some date from earlier in the OA Project and we may have changed our overall ruleset since they were written.

Out of time atm, but if you have additional questions about this, please feel free to ask.

Hope this helps,

Todd

[Drashner1]

So, to continue this a bit further:

Speaking in more general terms we can consider the abilities of transapients in various ways. For example:

a) Transapient abilities that are essentially vastly expanded versions of modosophont (human level) abilities. Humans have 5 senses, four primary limbs, two hands, 10 fingers, and 10 toes. While most humans don't use their toes for much, there are multiple examples of people who have learned to do quite a lot with them. Also, a skilled musician (e.g., a pianist) can use most of their limbs to very good effect when playing. Most people can handle multiple sensory inputs simultaneously. Humans ca also 'multi-task' - rapidly switching their attention among multiple tasks or inputs, although with significantly reduced ability at any one of them. Now let us consider these factors in terms of transapients of different S-levels:

S1 = 15,600x human level brain processing

Simultaneous Sensory Inputs = 78,000 - note that, unlike a baseline human, a transapient does not have its senses 'baked in' and can actually have many times this number of input devices at its disposal, mentally switching between and among them at will. Sensory inputs can encompass everything from devices able to detect individual atoms to chemical sensors to orbiting satellites, to data streams coming from sensor platforms light-hours or even light-years away.

Max. Possible 'Limbs/Hands/Fingers/Toes' = 62,400/31,200/156,000/156,000 - note that a transapient's manipulators (like their senses) do not need to be physically attached or located in only one location.

Multi-tasking = like a human, transapients doing multiple things at once experience a reduction in capability at each given task. However, they can both sense this and adjust their attention (and capacity per task) at will. A transapient can (for example) perform one task with its full intelligence and attention or 15,600 tasks with no more than a baseline human level of intelligence and attention applied to each task. Or 156,000 tasks at 1/10 human intelligence and attention. Or 1000 tasks at a bit over 15x human level ability -etc. It can adjust the amount of attention and intelligence (generalized problem solving ability) that it devotes to any specific task at will.

S2 = 5.1 billion times the ability of a human level mind.

Simultaneous Sensory Inputs = 25.5 billion -

Max. Possible 'Limbs/Hands/Fingers/Toes' = 20.4 billion/10.2 billion/51 billion/51 billion - note that a transapient's manipulators (like their senses) do not need to be physically attached or located in only one location.

Multi-tasking = 5.1 billion tasks at human level intelligence and attention, etc.

S3 = 2.98e20 (or 2.98 + 18 zeros if you prefer) = 298 quintillion times the ability of a human level mind - with all the various senses, manipulators, and multi-tasking increased accordingly. To put this in perspective - an S3 could examine every square meter of a planet like the Earth (land and sea) and devote the equivalent of over half a million human level minds to each square meter if it felt so inclined.

As mentioned earlier, we haven't fully detailed things for S4 and higher minds, but we do have the following worked out:

S4 - a Jupiter Brain forms its central processor. It is 150,000km across and masses about 300x the entire planet Earth with some of its internal processing routed through comm-gauge wormholes to get them from one side to the other instantly. It's CPU consists of 3 Earth masses of 'plasma processors' - computer elements using magmatter and plasma to perform data processing faster than conventional matter could support without exploding since the energies involved are greater than those of the chemical bonds that hold matter together. It basically makes an S3 look like a bacterium in comparison.

S5 - Based on discussions earlier this year, we are looking at S5 having a 'central processing unit' equivalent to a star with 10x the mass of the sun. The entire star is engineered into plasma processors and runs much hotter than those used by an S4.

S6 - we haven't fully discussed what an S6's capacities might be.

b) Transapient abilities that may have some low level similarity to modosophont abilities, but actually operate so far beyond them as to be in a class by themselves.

Foresight

Oversight

Ideogenesis

Translogic

Rewrite

Binding

Hope this helps,

Todd

[turoni]

Thanks this will at least take me a couple of days until I have further questions on this subject.

[turoni]

Is A Transapient's Lie about a message being relayed between two higher S levels and that message on its own has sentience?
It's alway cool seeing parallel ideas. Me suggesting the exact concept of orion's arm in a fb forum send me here. As I was contemplating how Singularities would converse I had the idea that they'd share minds instead of words. I didn't stop to ponder that this conversation would create sentience along the way.

[selden]

Is A Transapient's Lie about a message being relayed between two higher S levels and that message on its own has sentience?

That's certainly one way to interpret it. I think the ambiguities are intentionally part of the story.

It's alway cool seeing parallel ideas. Me suggesting the exact concept of orion's arm in a fb forum send me here. As I was contemplating how Singularities would converse I had the idea that they'd share minds instead of words. I didn't stop to ponder that this conversation would create sentience along the way.

One of the problems of that type of conversation is the question of whether or not it is self-conscious. In the OA environment there can be entities which can simulate all the actions of a conscious being but are not themselves self-conscious. This is a way to get around some of the ethical problems of slavery.

[Drashner1]

One of the problems of that type of conversation is the question of whether or not it is self-conscious. In the OA environment there can be entities which can simulate all the actions of a conscious being but are not themselves self-conscious. This is a way to get around some of the ethical problems of slavery.

This issue can get even more thorny when you consider that at the S5 and above level you have entities who can think entire lifeforms, biospheres, sophonts, and civilizations into existence (sometimes in millions of iterations simultaneously) without even trying hard. And then erase them out of existence a moment later if/when their attention/interest turns to something else.

Some might find that horrifying - but it's not like the modos in the setting can do anything about it, either.

Todd

[turoni]

Does it have to be an S5 to think up entire life forms?
If we take a look at the toposophic level and brain size an S0 has 1E18 bits storage and a S1 can converse at 1.56E22 bits/sec. That should mean he can converse 1.56E4 S0 minds/sec.

Am I missing some reasoning? Maybe hardware that can run the software and it otherwise needing to be virtualized?

[Drashner1]

It's not that it has to be an S5 to think up entire lifeforms. An S1 can imagine a new lifeform, or a new sophont mind, into existence, if it wants to.

The difference is one of...degree...I think would be the term.

An S1 may make the conscious decision to imagine a new lifeform or a new sophont in such detail that the entity is essentially a form of virtual life or AI. If it wants to, the S1 creator can give the new mind memories and such and can even embody it into the physical world with the right hardware on hand.

An S5 operates on a whole different scale of being. To provide an example:

Consider the following term: The Roman Empire

As you read the words, you might briefly imagine or remember a set of concepts associated with each. Maybe also some things you've read, maybe a movie or two you've seen, maybe some pictures. Followed by your attention focusing back on my post and OA and our discussion here.

In comparison, an S5 reading the same term could imagine an entire solar system into virtual existence, complete in every detail right now to gravitational interactions, solar wind gas dynamics, weather on the planets, solar flares and activity, etc. On one of the planets, an entire ecosystem would virtually evolve over subjective eons (but objective fractions of a second) until it produced - humans - who would in turn develop over subjective ages into the civilization we know as Rome. Each of the humans (and the pre-human entities they evolved from and so on) would be a complete conscious individual, with memories, a history, friends and family (all of whom would be complete beings in their own right as well), etc. All of them would equal the total population and activities of the Roman Empire during its entire history up until the point it fell and ceased to exist.

Much the same process would take place if the S5 spent a moment thinking about dinosaurs. Or pink elephants. Or whatever.

In other words - an S1 can think one or a few new lifeforms or minds into being, but it has to make a conscious effort. An S5 may think entire planetary systems of new life or minds into being (complete with cultures, histories, artifacts, you name it) simply as a side effect of considering them for a moment. In addition, an S5 may not just think of one version of these, but actually generate millions of versions and run them over and over until it gets the outcome that matches known history or that it wants or the like - and again, this is only its version of idle, momentary thought - not the result of focused effort on its part.

Coming at this from another direction, consider deductive telepathy - another transapient ability. While it does have its limits, it is something that all of transapients can do if they wish. At the S5 level, this means that - if you were to come to the attention of an S5 in any significant way - it could literally be creating and eliminating millions or billions of versions of you 'in its head' throughout every moment of your interaction as it modeled your actions, thoughts, personality, etc. to a huge degree of accuracy.

Hope this helps,

Todd