05-26-2018, 09:27 AM
Got out of work early due to the holiday weekend (yay!). Thoughts and comments below...
Hrm. Thinking about this, I see some...challenges. Specifically:
a) Given that some transcension mazes are designed to ascend the user to the Second or even the Third Singularity, this implies either that the character left before the process was even barely started or that they ascended at least one, or possibly two, S-levels before leaving the maze.
b) Even in the mazes that only help a user ascend to the First Singularity, the process of ascension involves a great deal of augmentation and possibly intelligence increase, as well as a lot of psychological adjustment and mental discipline.
c) OA bases its ideas on Singularity on the ideas of Stanislaw Lem and his concept of 'toposophy'. More specifically, we presume that there is not a single path to post-Singularity intelligence, nor that there is only one kind of post-Singularity intelligence, but rather that there is a 'landscape' of potential toposophic levels and types, and a plethora of possible paths to different parts of the 'landscape'. The upshot of all this is that it is possible that a post-Singularity entity created in a particular transension maze (or via some other process) might be drastically different in its form of mind from another entity who arose from a different transcension maze. Even if those beings are the same species or one is a copy of the other.
Putting the above together, I think it might be very challenging, possibly verging on impossible for a host of different minds created by different mazes to all merge together successfully, at least without the aid of a yet higher-S entity. And you seem to be trying for a DIY approach to this.
Another issue here - and possibly a great one - the results of all these transcension maze visits are all going to be heavily augmented, and possibly already S1 or S2 entities (depending on how you're defining 'final' above). Which means that individually and collectively they are going to be vastly more intelligent than their...progenitor. From a reader perspective, it begs the question of why such entities (or a fusion of them) continue to be subservient to the character. From an OA perspective, if they are transapient or even really highly augmented, the character is going to be little more than a clever animal to them (if that) and it is most likely that they will either take off on their own or are manipulating the character for their own purposes while only pretending to do eir bidding.
I think you could certainly have the character visit a lot of mazes (I'm not sure that all of them are practical since that number could run to the thousands (at least)), as well as the big transcension studies centers in Keter and the Solar Dominion (both empires make it a 'thing' to encourage ascension/transcension) and possibly other empires as well. E might also have an Aivisor that was gifted to em by a transapient or archai at some point in eir travels and this could play the role of the advisor - although it might be rather cryptic at times and the character might have some concerns about being manipulated.
Thinking on this further, note also that most cultures in the setting limit how many copies one can have running at the same time. The character might have some kind of special dispensation/permit to get around that, but that should be noted in the story since if e does have a lot of copies running that would be a very notable thing in OA terms in most places.
We'd need to know what the ideas in question are, to make sure they fit in with OA Canon, or at least aren't likely to cause a massive issue in that area. If they're presented as the character's ideas (rather than 'facts of the setting') that allows much more latitude. But it is probably better to review the ideas in question first to save on potential headaches later.
Ok
You could give it a try, although we can't make any promises about whether we could accept it into OA. We would need to see it first.
I would repeat my caution that writing about superhuman intelligence is generally agreed to be one of the most difficult tasks in SF, and that is based on the thoughts of a number of greats in the field, many of whom are/were both great writers and accomplished scientists or engineers in their own right.
Coming at this from a different perspective - you talk about the perspective of a 'bright S0.4' - but note that in OA, an S1 has mental capabilities and runs on computronium resources that work out to supporting/being equivalent to over 15,000 S0 minds. A bit of math works out that an 'S0.4' would therefore be around 6000x as capable as an S0 baseline human - which I'm reasonably certain you're not, although if you'd like to demonstrate otherwise, I'm sure we'd be interested in seeing it
Rather more seriously, the decimal S-scale is used here and there in the setting, but has not been very much developed or discussed by the group in a very long time. It is therefore rather...fuzzy...in terms of what exactly it is describing or how it quantifies that description or how (or if) that description translates to anything we RL baseline humans would understand. Based on past experience, it might be better to therefore avoid trying to pin the author of any article to a particular decimal value and instead just say something like 'the bright/superior/nearbaseline/whatever scholar Insert Namehere wrote in eir seminal work on the subject..blah blah blah, etc. etc.. There is precedent for framing an EG article as the product of or excerpt from the work of some in-setting sophont, so that could be workable.
In-setting this question is answered by the science of Toposophy, which looks at the nature of mind, both in terms of Singularities (the vertical) and types of minds of many different types of sophonts via the Toposophic Landscape (the horizontal).
Out-of-setting, and speaking from an editorial perspective, this is an area that currently has a lot of 'tribal knowledge' among the OA community, but is not written up as extensively as we would like (and what is written up is very old and probably would in need of review and possibly revision). If you are interested in expanding on/helping out in this area, possibly working in those of your ideas that fit within OA (as determined by the OA community and 'the management') along the way, that is certainly something we would be interested in discussing.
Hm. Within the context of OA, nearly everything you describe here is considered to be just standard, run-of-the-mill S0 (or modosophont as they are called in OA) capabilities. Not the least bit unusual, impressive, or even particularly notable (to provide a RL comparison, think of someone having a particularly unique case for their cell phone - you might notice it and wonder where they got it and even take some time to find it online and buy it - but you certainly aren't going to consider it overly impressive or life changing or the like).
Speaking in more detail (and bearing in mind that I don't know how familiar you are with OA, so apologies in advance if you are already aware of these pages):
OA divides intelligences in the setting initially into three categories:
1) Modosophonts (S0)
2) Transapients (S1-S3)
3) Archailects - pl. Archai - (S4-S6)
Modosophonts make up the bulk of the OA population and are broadly defined as 'human equivalent' intelligences, although they may actually be much more intelligent than anyone in real life (RL). For simplicity, moving forward we will limit ourselves to flesh and blood human modosophonts (although there are lots and lots of non-flesh and blood, non-human ones as well, in fact they make up the vast majority of the population). Within that group we have. By and large these beings could walk down the street in real life and not be noticed as different, either at all, or with minimal disguising.
1) Baselines
2) Near-baselines (aka nebs)
3) Superiors (aka Su)
Baselines are humans like you and me - not possessed of any genetic enhancements, although in some cultures they might use cybernetic enhancements (while in others they do not). Baselines have chosen to eschew the vast range of possible genetic enhancements that OA technology can provide, and often also avoid the cybernetic enhancements. As a result they are very much in the minority with a population of only 150 billion or so and may be on their way to extinction (or only existing in preserves) since often their children leave to become enhanced and no longer are considered baselines. Baselines are generally considered to be less capable than virtually everyone else in the setting, although there are a few exceptions and with the right augmentations a baseline can hold their own with other modosophonts - but then they are generally no longer considered to be a baseline.
Near-baseline humans would readily pass for humans like you and me in most cases, but are really very different. They are the product of thousands of years of genetic engineering, often based on cultural desires, fads, or whatnot. Still, they have a number of common traits, such as living for hundreds of years, conscious control of fertility, excellent vision that often extends into the IR and UV spectrum, a magnetosense (natural like some animals), etc. For a more extensive (but not necessarily complete) list, see HERE. Their population runs to a bit under 30 quadrillion in the setting.
Superiors are sort of the luxury cars of genetic engineering. They are also the product of thousands of years of work, but it is much more controlled and planned and not so much subject to the whims of the market or fashion or the like. They live longer than nebs, are stronger, faster, and much smarter. They possess such abilities as limb regeneration as a common trait (only some neb clades include this), anti-freeze proteins in their blood, and the ability to rapidly adapt to both external conditions and activities such that most of them are in what we would consider Olympic athlete levels of fitness with minimal effort. For a more extensive (but not necessarily complete) list of Superior abilities, see HERE.
There are only about 1.2 quadrillion or so in the setting.
Beyond all of their various genetic enhancements (and the above mentions don't include the Tweaks who are gengineered to live in environments we would find anywhere from difficult to deadly), humans (and other sophonts) in OA routinely possess an entire range of cybernetic augmentations. The most basic of these is probably the Direct Neural Interface, which allows the user to directly interface their mind with a computer and upload/download information and control machines just by thinking at them or by treating them as direct extensions of their own bodies (with appropriate downloaded overlays or programs to let them do this and have it feel natural, even if the machine is very different from a human body).
In addition, the DNI allows a number of useful abilities, such as direct mind to mind communication, interfacing with remote machines wirelessly, internal computing components that allow lightning mental calculation, easy 3D (or higher) visualization, highly accurate distance measurements, altering your own personality or personal tastes (don't like spinach, you can change that in less than an hour.),etc. etc. For a more complete list of what an average DNI system provides, see HERE. Note that DNI tech has been around for most of 10,000 years in the setting and nearly everyone has one as a matter of course (or even constitutional right). Some cultures gengineer themselves to grow DNIs 'naturally' in their brains, but most don't.
Beyond the DNI, most sophonts also possess some form of an Exocortex that lets them expand their intelligence and mental abilities even beyond that of a DNI without (usually) radically altering their personality (much). The Exocortex usually hosts their Exoself.
Note that sophonts can also use advanced learning tech to education themselves much faster and more extensively than anything we can do now in RL.
Beyond their mental augmentations, most sophonts also possess a personal medical systemf that confers a number of benefits, including functional immortality (their gengineered longevity is considered to be a sort of emergency backup in case civilization falls or their medical systems fail for some reason).
Beyond this, sophonts can (if they wish, and often they do) augment themselves even further, with things like airdust and artificial lungs or replacement of their vascular system or the implantation of artificial muscles to become super strong, or the addition of artificial limbs or an effector frame.
Oh, and between their onboard systems and the external medical tech available, they can change their sexual orientation as easily as we might change our screensaver and their gender, species, or substrate as easily as we might get a new couch. Call it a day or so for the first and a weekend in a medical coma for the second. For the software based people in the setting (which make up the vast majority - population estimated to be 30-3000 quintillion) any of these sorts of changes can be done in a second or two - they change selves the way we flip stations on the TV or radio.
All of these things (and more besides, including senses no human has now) are basically available to everybody, often as a right of being a citizen, usually for free or a very nominal cost - and they have been for thousands of years.
So, like I said - by OA standard most of what you describe are what we call 'just regular folks' (and compared to the transapients they are little more than clever animals or particularly active bacteria - or less).
I mentioned a couple spots where we differ:
1) In OA we aren't all that impressed with speed of thought upgrades - they're generally only cool if only a few people have them, the advantage pretty much goes away when everyone does - and in OA everyone does more or less, if they want em.
2) In OA Jupiter brains and such are virtually always transapient individuals (archai actually) or are hardware to host virtual worlds and habitats.
Ok, out of time. More later. In particular, I don't play video games and don't know what a reaper is. Will need to look that up and get back to you on that question.
Hope this helps,
Todd
(05-25-2018, 03:18 PM)Archailectheocrat Wrote: Hey all, thank you for the feedback! So a few ideas I have based on that:
1) How about the character having gone into all existing transcension mazes, but having left them right before the "final" ascendence step, possibly creating copies of themselves, which proceed to fuse into a multitude "board of transsapient advisors" specialised in helping the original ascend as well as possible.
Hrm. Thinking about this, I see some...challenges. Specifically:
a) Given that some transcension mazes are designed to ascend the user to the Second or even the Third Singularity, this implies either that the character left before the process was even barely started or that they ascended at least one, or possibly two, S-levels before leaving the maze.
b) Even in the mazes that only help a user ascend to the First Singularity, the process of ascension involves a great deal of augmentation and possibly intelligence increase, as well as a lot of psychological adjustment and mental discipline.
c) OA bases its ideas on Singularity on the ideas of Stanislaw Lem and his concept of 'toposophy'. More specifically, we presume that there is not a single path to post-Singularity intelligence, nor that there is only one kind of post-Singularity intelligence, but rather that there is a 'landscape' of potential toposophic levels and types, and a plethora of possible paths to different parts of the 'landscape'. The upshot of all this is that it is possible that a post-Singularity entity created in a particular transension maze (or via some other process) might be drastically different in its form of mind from another entity who arose from a different transcension maze. Even if those beings are the same species or one is a copy of the other.
Putting the above together, I think it might be very challenging, possibly verging on impossible for a host of different minds created by different mazes to all merge together successfully, at least without the aid of a yet higher-S entity. And you seem to be trying for a DIY approach to this.
Another issue here - and possibly a great one - the results of all these transcension maze visits are all going to be heavily augmented, and possibly already S1 or S2 entities (depending on how you're defining 'final' above). Which means that individually and collectively they are going to be vastly more intelligent than their...progenitor. From a reader perspective, it begs the question of why such entities (or a fusion of them) continue to be subservient to the character. From an OA perspective, if they are transapient or even really highly augmented, the character is going to be little more than a clever animal to them (if that) and it is most likely that they will either take off on their own or are manipulating the character for their own purposes while only pretending to do eir bidding.
I think you could certainly have the character visit a lot of mazes (I'm not sure that all of them are practical since that number could run to the thousands (at least)), as well as the big transcension studies centers in Keter and the Solar Dominion (both empires make it a 'thing' to encourage ascension/transcension) and possibly other empires as well. E might also have an Aivisor that was gifted to em by a transapient or archai at some point in eir travels and this could play the role of the advisor - although it might be rather cryptic at times and the character might have some concerns about being manipulated.
Thinking on this further, note also that most cultures in the setting limit how many copies one can have running at the same time. The character might have some kind of special dispensation/permit to get around that, but that should be noted in the story since if e does have a lot of copies running that would be a very notable thing in OA terms in most places.
(05-25-2018, 03:18 PM)Archailectheocrat Wrote: 2) I have several ideas on transsapience, which I could present as ideas of this character (I am currently writing a philosophy paper on quantity maximization of reversible sentience-pattern integration states as preparation, in avoiding botched ascends / preventing “Transcension” during the technological singularity).
We'd need to know what the ideas in question are, to make sure they fit in with OA Canon, or at least aren't likely to cause a massive issue in that area. If they're presented as the character's ideas (rather than 'facts of the setting') that allows much more latitude. But it is probably better to review the ideas in question first to save on potential headaches later.
(05-25-2018, 03:18 PM)Archailectheocrat Wrote: 3) Them being "one of the great superbright experts" was perhaps more what I had in mind to be honest. With the diversity of sophonce types, the "best" would be difficult to measure; Perhaps they would be the best as seen from my current state, but this is a very subjective term and thus I agree with you on it not working as an universal "best."
Ok
(05-25-2018, 03:18 PM)Archailectheocrat Wrote: 4) I would like to work on translogic. Given my background in both AI and experience with cognitive augmentation, I think I could write an extra article on translogic. Maybe we could have one article written from a baseline perspective (that we already have), with a link to an additional article written from a "bright S0.4 perspective" - which I could try to write?
You could give it a try, although we can't make any promises about whether we could accept it into OA. We would need to see it first.
I would repeat my caution that writing about superhuman intelligence is generally agreed to be one of the most difficult tasks in SF, and that is based on the thoughts of a number of greats in the field, many of whom are/were both great writers and accomplished scientists or engineers in their own right.
Coming at this from a different perspective - you talk about the perspective of a 'bright S0.4' - but note that in OA, an S1 has mental capabilities and runs on computronium resources that work out to supporting/being equivalent to over 15,000 S0 minds. A bit of math works out that an 'S0.4' would therefore be around 6000x as capable as an S0 baseline human - which I'm reasonably certain you're not, although if you'd like to demonstrate otherwise, I'm sure we'd be interested in seeing it
Rather more seriously, the decimal S-scale is used here and there in the setting, but has not been very much developed or discussed by the group in a very long time. It is therefore rather...fuzzy...in terms of what exactly it is describing or how it quantifies that description or how (or if) that description translates to anything we RL baseline humans would understand. Based on past experience, it might be better to therefore avoid trying to pin the author of any article to a particular decimal value and instead just say something like 'the bright/superior/nearbaseline/whatever scholar Insert Namehere wrote in eir seminal work on the subject..blah blah blah, etc. etc.. There is precedent for framing an EG article as the product of or excerpt from the work of some in-setting sophont, so that could be workable.
(05-25-2018, 03:18 PM)Archailectheocrat Wrote: 5) I would like to expand on several toposophic ideas; Some ideas I have follow (not necesarilly in OA terminology, I could put them in the right terminology after learning more, or expand the terminology):
I don't think the "Intelligence is incomprehensible to all sophonts below this level" is truly sufficient; A transhuman that has a form of intelligence completely incomprehensible to all humans, but doesn't necesarilly have all the capabilities of the baseline that evolved into that being (they "lost" certain human traits) - how do you measure such a being? How do you discern an animin from a modo that's incomprehensible to all other modos due to the utterly alien *form* of their consciousness?
In-setting this question is answered by the science of Toposophy, which looks at the nature of mind, both in terms of Singularities (the vertical) and types of minds of many different types of sophonts via the Toposophic Landscape (the horizontal).
Out-of-setting, and speaking from an editorial perspective, this is an area that currently has a lot of 'tribal knowledge' among the OA community, but is not written up as extensively as we would like (and what is written up is very old and probably would in need of review and possibly revision). If you are interested in expanding on/helping out in this area, possibly working in those of your ideas that fit within OA (as determined by the OA community and 'the management') along the way, that is certainly something we would be interested in discussing.
(05-25-2018, 03:18 PM)Archailectheocrat Wrote: I would say that even for humans, one could discern between baselines, superhumans (I would call this homo potens) and transhumans (homo transcedens).
A Homo Potens may have limitless longevity (they may not age due to extensive gene therapies, advanced automated stem cell procedures and DNA/epigenome repair (nano)technology. They may also have direct neural interface implant that allow them to access the internet with a “reality overlay”, for example the ability to see a Wikipedia article on any building they look at through “augmented reality” – they may also have implants that allow them to effortlessly do calculus or have an increased IQ. Note that a homo potens may even be a non-transsapient jupiter brain or other ISO, merely "experiencing humanity" a trillion times faster, without having "new" modes of thought.
A homo transcedens, on the other hand, would not merely have “expanded human abilities”: A transcedens would not only have vastly expanded human abilities, but also completely new abilities that no baseline human, nor a homo potens would have. A transcedens could, for example have the ability to see a larger part of the colour spectrum, advanced echolocation or electromagnetic senses (an ability no potens would have, as a potens is essentially a “Baseline human” with more “brute force” in their abilities: A potens may be able to live longer, think faster, access data easier or do anything a normal human can do better. A transcedens, on the other hand, has integrated abilities that no baseline human has whatsoever.
A transcedens also does not necesarilly have to be transsapient: After all, I am myself a transcedens, given the fact I have magnetic senses due to my implants, and I certainly am not a post-singularity being (I wish!). The abilities a transcedens has may well be theoretically understood by a baseline human or potens. For example, an intelligent baseline human can fully understand there being more colours than their eyes can see or brain can process, or there being “extensions” to the sense of touch or hearing that allow more information (or more varied information) to be processed.
Hm. Within the context of OA, nearly everything you describe here is considered to be just standard, run-of-the-mill S0 (or modosophont as they are called in OA) capabilities. Not the least bit unusual, impressive, or even particularly notable (to provide a RL comparison, think of someone having a particularly unique case for their cell phone - you might notice it and wonder where they got it and even take some time to find it online and buy it - but you certainly aren't going to consider it overly impressive or life changing or the like).
Speaking in more detail (and bearing in mind that I don't know how familiar you are with OA, so apologies in advance if you are already aware of these pages):
OA divides intelligences in the setting initially into three categories:
1) Modosophonts (S0)
2) Transapients (S1-S3)
3) Archailects - pl. Archai - (S4-S6)
Modosophonts make up the bulk of the OA population and are broadly defined as 'human equivalent' intelligences, although they may actually be much more intelligent than anyone in real life (RL). For simplicity, moving forward we will limit ourselves to flesh and blood human modosophonts (although there are lots and lots of non-flesh and blood, non-human ones as well, in fact they make up the vast majority of the population). Within that group we have. By and large these beings could walk down the street in real life and not be noticed as different, either at all, or with minimal disguising.
1) Baselines
2) Near-baselines (aka nebs)
3) Superiors (aka Su)
Baselines are humans like you and me - not possessed of any genetic enhancements, although in some cultures they might use cybernetic enhancements (while in others they do not). Baselines have chosen to eschew the vast range of possible genetic enhancements that OA technology can provide, and often also avoid the cybernetic enhancements. As a result they are very much in the minority with a population of only 150 billion or so and may be on their way to extinction (or only existing in preserves) since often their children leave to become enhanced and no longer are considered baselines. Baselines are generally considered to be less capable than virtually everyone else in the setting, although there are a few exceptions and with the right augmentations a baseline can hold their own with other modosophonts - but then they are generally no longer considered to be a baseline.
Near-baseline humans would readily pass for humans like you and me in most cases, but are really very different. They are the product of thousands of years of genetic engineering, often based on cultural desires, fads, or whatnot. Still, they have a number of common traits, such as living for hundreds of years, conscious control of fertility, excellent vision that often extends into the IR and UV spectrum, a magnetosense (natural like some animals), etc. For a more extensive (but not necessarily complete) list, see HERE. Their population runs to a bit under 30 quadrillion in the setting.
Superiors are sort of the luxury cars of genetic engineering. They are also the product of thousands of years of work, but it is much more controlled and planned and not so much subject to the whims of the market or fashion or the like. They live longer than nebs, are stronger, faster, and much smarter. They possess such abilities as limb regeneration as a common trait (only some neb clades include this), anti-freeze proteins in their blood, and the ability to rapidly adapt to both external conditions and activities such that most of them are in what we would consider Olympic athlete levels of fitness with minimal effort. For a more extensive (but not necessarily complete) list of Superior abilities, see HERE.
There are only about 1.2 quadrillion or so in the setting.
Beyond all of their various genetic enhancements (and the above mentions don't include the Tweaks who are gengineered to live in environments we would find anywhere from difficult to deadly), humans (and other sophonts) in OA routinely possess an entire range of cybernetic augmentations. The most basic of these is probably the Direct Neural Interface, which allows the user to directly interface their mind with a computer and upload/download information and control machines just by thinking at them or by treating them as direct extensions of their own bodies (with appropriate downloaded overlays or programs to let them do this and have it feel natural, even if the machine is very different from a human body).
In addition, the DNI allows a number of useful abilities, such as direct mind to mind communication, interfacing with remote machines wirelessly, internal computing components that allow lightning mental calculation, easy 3D (or higher) visualization, highly accurate distance measurements, altering your own personality or personal tastes (don't like spinach, you can change that in less than an hour.),etc. etc. For a more complete list of what an average DNI system provides, see HERE. Note that DNI tech has been around for most of 10,000 years in the setting and nearly everyone has one as a matter of course (or even constitutional right). Some cultures gengineer themselves to grow DNIs 'naturally' in their brains, but most don't.
Beyond the DNI, most sophonts also possess some form of an Exocortex that lets them expand their intelligence and mental abilities even beyond that of a DNI without (usually) radically altering their personality (much). The Exocortex usually hosts their Exoself.
Note that sophonts can also use advanced learning tech to education themselves much faster and more extensively than anything we can do now in RL.
Beyond their mental augmentations, most sophonts also possess a personal medical systemf that confers a number of benefits, including functional immortality (their gengineered longevity is considered to be a sort of emergency backup in case civilization falls or their medical systems fail for some reason).
Beyond this, sophonts can (if they wish, and often they do) augment themselves even further, with things like airdust and artificial lungs or replacement of their vascular system or the implantation of artificial muscles to become super strong, or the addition of artificial limbs or an effector frame.
Oh, and between their onboard systems and the external medical tech available, they can change their sexual orientation as easily as we might change our screensaver and their gender, species, or substrate as easily as we might get a new couch. Call it a day or so for the first and a weekend in a medical coma for the second. For the software based people in the setting (which make up the vast majority - population estimated to be 30-3000 quintillion) any of these sorts of changes can be done in a second or two - they change selves the way we flip stations on the TV or radio.
All of these things (and more besides, including senses no human has now) are basically available to everybody, often as a right of being a citizen, usually for free or a very nominal cost - and they have been for thousands of years.
So, like I said - by OA standard most of what you describe are what we call 'just regular folks' (and compared to the transapients they are little more than clever animals or particularly active bacteria - or less).
I mentioned a couple spots where we differ:
1) In OA we aren't all that impressed with speed of thought upgrades - they're generally only cool if only a few people have them, the advantage pretty much goes away when everyone does - and in OA everyone does more or less, if they want em.
2) In OA Jupiter brains and such are virtually always transapient individuals (archai actually) or are hardware to host virtual worlds and habitats.
Ok, out of time. More later. In particular, I don't play video games and don't know what a reaper is. Will need to look that up and get back to you on that question.
Hope this helps,
Todd