05-18-2018, 01:48 PM
So, rather than doing lots of replies to individual points in your various posts, I'm going to summarize points and my replies here to save space (And hopefully time). In no particular order:
a) Regarding an article on encryption in the setting - as we discussed earlier this would be great as long as we could make it at least reasonably layperson friendly. An added bit that I forgot to mention the first time is that it would also be quite workable to add references and links to the Design Notes and Additional Information sections of the article. These can be as technical as you want and can include PDFs hosted on our content management system, links to websites or other online articles, and links to videos on YouTube or similar resources. Graphics and diagrams within the article are also welcome. Also, I'm a bit rusty on the methodology, but the EG can also host formal equations and math formulae, although we would prefer to have enough layperson friendly content to make those sorts of things icing on the cake rather than the main event.
b) In various parts of our discussions you've mentioned 'technotelepathy' in terms of the transapients or archai being able to read sophonts minds. We do have such tech in the setting, both in terms of 'infecting' a sophont brain with replicators that build a non-destructive uploader and then make a copy of their mind which is then read out and as a common feature of most DNI systems. But I'm wondering if you're actually referring to another ability in the setting - deductive telepathy - in which a transapient essentially psychologically profiles a lower S-level mind to such a degree that they can predict/model what they are thinking to an extremely high degree of accuracy - so high that it often comes across as if they are reading the lower S beings mind.
Mainly just trying to make sure we are on the same sheet of music in our discussions. Also, regardless of which type of 'mind reading' you are referring to, could you clairify what you mean by this? I'm not entirely sure I'm seeing where you're coming from here. Thanks!
c) Re baseline friendly terminology - I think that once we have an article created (or an existing article updated) with a consistent terminology and clear definitions of what each it is, it won't take long for those with an interest to pick it up and start using it comfortably. Based on past experience, whether that terminology is 'quantum level 0) through 3)' or 'completely classical, quantum co-processor, etc.' is less important than people feeling that they have a reasonably clear understanding of what each level is and is characterized by and is capable of. At that point, they will probably start incorporating it into both forum discussions and EG articles, as well as potentially developing alternative terminologies with the idea that different systems of notation and terminology and 'schools of thought' exist in different places in the setting.
d) Re creating (or not creating) large scale quantum entanglements in hot and messy environment and/or gaming such systems - this all sounds cool. For an added thought - I wonder if the archai could use chaos wand technology to essentially create stable zones in some environments for QC to take place in?
e) Re magmatter computronium - I imagine that this type of hardware (quantum or classical) is used in conditions where its extreme durability is considered to outweigh its mass. IIRC magmatter is superconducting up to extreme temperatures (the surface of the sun is a practically absolute zero vacuum as far as it is concerned). Also, mag-computronium would be able to engage in processing at speeds/energy levels that would exceed the strength of chemical bonds and tear conventional matter processors apart. It's sort of like having mini-neuron star matter at your disposal - although not held together by gravity.
f) Re S4 magmatter minds - Such might be possible, but would need to be distributed into some kind of swarm of units using comm-links. A mass of magmatter smaller than a lunar mass will not collapse into a black hole. But anything larger pretty much is guaranteed to unless properly spread out. Of course, such a swarm could consist of lunar masses of magmatter inside void bubbles and then great merriment could ensue...
g) Re plasma processors - the current numbers on these are not as concrete as (for example) those for Ultimate Chips. They are a mix of BOTE, what seems plausible, and what came from an article I read some years back about the ultimate limits of computation by Seth Lloyd. The original article I saw was in Ars Technica and I'm not able to find it now. But I was able to find a paper by Lloyd on the same subject (see attached). At the time, I thought the article was interesting (insofar as I could understand it), but not really relevant to OA or much else. However, I then came across an SF story (Cusp) which is an interesting semi-hard SF story with lots of big ideas. It makes a passing mention of a plasma processor computer made from a very small fusion reactor. And then somewhere in all that magmatter was introduced to the setting.
Putting this all together (and bearing in mind I don't entirely remember all my thinking at the time), I believe I assumed a plasma temp of around 100,000 degrees (IIRC the 'ultimate laptop' is described at running in the billion degree temp range, so I assumed a 4-5 orders of magnitude less capable system to be conservative). If the UL is capable of approx 2e50 operations per second, then a system 10,000x less capable could do 2e46 ops and one 100,000x less capable can do 2e45. An S3 is described as processing 2.98e38bps and storing 1.64e45bits. So allowing for even more efficiency and capability losses to be even more conservative, fitting an S3 into a kg of plasma processor seemed reasonable. IIRC I also assumed 1-bit per atom data storage to be conservative.
For an S4 we are tentatively assuming 3 Earth masses of plasma processor in the core of a Jupiter Brain (meaning a gas giant converted into computronium) using a 3d mesh of magcarbon nanotube fitted with tiny conversion reactors that suck in part of the gas giants mass and convert it to energy to energize a plasma that is held along the lines of the mesh by the massive magnetic fields and controlled by them to act as a processor. And the metallic H2 surrounding the core is (somehow - maybe by introducing impurities?) converted into extreme high temp superconducting processor for memory storage and secondary processing. Hm. Could metallic H2 support quantum computing or data storage? Extreme high temp but also under extreme conditions (pressure and gravity) that might hold it very stable.
For S5 we're currently toying with using a 10 solar mass star that has its entire volume engineered into plasma processors, much of them operating at much higher temps than S4 can manage.
All this is obviously very speculative and not as worked out as we would like yet. Any thoughts or computational assistance you could provide in these areas would be much appreciated.
h) Re a taxonomy of quantum computing - Sounds good to me
Either as its own article or by expanding the existing taxonomy article sounds good.
i) Re reversible computation - this has come up in discussion on the forum before (waste heat as a limiting factor gets talked about a lot here), but this is again an area where none of the currently active members have been able to claim much solid expertise and so we've not known quite what to do with it or what limitations it has. It somewhat comes across as a bit of a free lunch to some folks and so there is a tendency to be leery of it out of the fear that we might invest a lot of creative time on it only to have the other shoe drop and then have to undo a lot of cool stuff. Again, if you can provide some layperson friendly descriptions/EG entries/references we'd be happy to add this to the EG and the OA setting.
j) Re entropy piping - sounds cool - another potential EG article I would think That said, in past discussions there has been mention made of something called 'bit rot' - apparently having to do with the entropy of computation and getting you waste heat and causing other limits on capability. Can you explain what that is and how would it factor into all of this?
k) Re running cold vs running hot computronium - sure. While we so far haven't delved into this issue in great detail in the setting, it seems logical that Terragen civ has a vast number of different designs for computronium, each optimized for different environments, computational or storage needs, and probably some large number of other factors that are all dealt with as a matter of routine whenever some new computing installation or infrastructure is being created. So you have one set of designs for when you want to operate in high energy environments and others that are designed to work in deep space at near absolute zero, and other designs for every environement in between. And it all meshes together seamlessly from the end users point of view
l) Re quantum channels - it sounds like before we're done we should have an article on this, including the applications. Actually, I've occasionally toyed with the idea that OA should have an entire section on 'quantum tech', a whole family of technology based on various quantum weirdness - but don't have a sufficient understanding of what that might look like, what the capabilities and limitations would be, etc. Also so much going on haven't had time to learn much, and a lot of the into that is out there is more technical than I can manage.
Ok, I think that about covers everything I wanted to respond to
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the matter(s),
Todd
a) Regarding an article on encryption in the setting - as we discussed earlier this would be great as long as we could make it at least reasonably layperson friendly. An added bit that I forgot to mention the first time is that it would also be quite workable to add references and links to the Design Notes and Additional Information sections of the article. These can be as technical as you want and can include PDFs hosted on our content management system, links to websites or other online articles, and links to videos on YouTube or similar resources. Graphics and diagrams within the article are also welcome. Also, I'm a bit rusty on the methodology, but the EG can also host formal equations and math formulae, although we would prefer to have enough layperson friendly content to make those sorts of things icing on the cake rather than the main event.
b) In various parts of our discussions you've mentioned 'technotelepathy' in terms of the transapients or archai being able to read sophonts minds. We do have such tech in the setting, both in terms of 'infecting' a sophont brain with replicators that build a non-destructive uploader and then make a copy of their mind which is then read out and as a common feature of most DNI systems. But I'm wondering if you're actually referring to another ability in the setting - deductive telepathy - in which a transapient essentially psychologically profiles a lower S-level mind to such a degree that they can predict/model what they are thinking to an extremely high degree of accuracy - so high that it often comes across as if they are reading the lower S beings mind.
Mainly just trying to make sure we are on the same sheet of music in our discussions. Also, regardless of which type of 'mind reading' you are referring to, could you clairify what you mean by this? I'm not entirely sure I'm seeing where you're coming from here. Thanks!
c) Re baseline friendly terminology - I think that once we have an article created (or an existing article updated) with a consistent terminology and clear definitions of what each it is, it won't take long for those with an interest to pick it up and start using it comfortably. Based on past experience, whether that terminology is 'quantum level 0) through 3)' or 'completely classical, quantum co-processor, etc.' is less important than people feeling that they have a reasonably clear understanding of what each level is and is characterized by and is capable of. At that point, they will probably start incorporating it into both forum discussions and EG articles, as well as potentially developing alternative terminologies with the idea that different systems of notation and terminology and 'schools of thought' exist in different places in the setting.
d) Re creating (or not creating) large scale quantum entanglements in hot and messy environment and/or gaming such systems - this all sounds cool. For an added thought - I wonder if the archai could use chaos wand technology to essentially create stable zones in some environments for QC to take place in?
e) Re magmatter computronium - I imagine that this type of hardware (quantum or classical) is used in conditions where its extreme durability is considered to outweigh its mass. IIRC magmatter is superconducting up to extreme temperatures (the surface of the sun is a practically absolute zero vacuum as far as it is concerned). Also, mag-computronium would be able to engage in processing at speeds/energy levels that would exceed the strength of chemical bonds and tear conventional matter processors apart. It's sort of like having mini-neuron star matter at your disposal - although not held together by gravity.
f) Re S4 magmatter minds - Such might be possible, but would need to be distributed into some kind of swarm of units using comm-links. A mass of magmatter smaller than a lunar mass will not collapse into a black hole. But anything larger pretty much is guaranteed to unless properly spread out. Of course, such a swarm could consist of lunar masses of magmatter inside void bubbles and then great merriment could ensue...
g) Re plasma processors - the current numbers on these are not as concrete as (for example) those for Ultimate Chips. They are a mix of BOTE, what seems plausible, and what came from an article I read some years back about the ultimate limits of computation by Seth Lloyd. The original article I saw was in Ars Technica and I'm not able to find it now. But I was able to find a paper by Lloyd on the same subject (see attached). At the time, I thought the article was interesting (insofar as I could understand it), but not really relevant to OA or much else. However, I then came across an SF story (Cusp) which is an interesting semi-hard SF story with lots of big ideas. It makes a passing mention of a plasma processor computer made from a very small fusion reactor. And then somewhere in all that magmatter was introduced to the setting.
Putting this all together (and bearing in mind I don't entirely remember all my thinking at the time), I believe I assumed a plasma temp of around 100,000 degrees (IIRC the 'ultimate laptop' is described at running in the billion degree temp range, so I assumed a 4-5 orders of magnitude less capable system to be conservative). If the UL is capable of approx 2e50 operations per second, then a system 10,000x less capable could do 2e46 ops and one 100,000x less capable can do 2e45. An S3 is described as processing 2.98e38bps and storing 1.64e45bits. So allowing for even more efficiency and capability losses to be even more conservative, fitting an S3 into a kg of plasma processor seemed reasonable. IIRC I also assumed 1-bit per atom data storage to be conservative.
For an S4 we are tentatively assuming 3 Earth masses of plasma processor in the core of a Jupiter Brain (meaning a gas giant converted into computronium) using a 3d mesh of magcarbon nanotube fitted with tiny conversion reactors that suck in part of the gas giants mass and convert it to energy to energize a plasma that is held along the lines of the mesh by the massive magnetic fields and controlled by them to act as a processor. And the metallic H2 surrounding the core is (somehow - maybe by introducing impurities?) converted into extreme high temp superconducting processor for memory storage and secondary processing. Hm. Could metallic H2 support quantum computing or data storage? Extreme high temp but also under extreme conditions (pressure and gravity) that might hold it very stable.
For S5 we're currently toying with using a 10 solar mass star that has its entire volume engineered into plasma processors, much of them operating at much higher temps than S4 can manage.
All this is obviously very speculative and not as worked out as we would like yet. Any thoughts or computational assistance you could provide in these areas would be much appreciated.
h) Re a taxonomy of quantum computing - Sounds good to me
Either as its own article or by expanding the existing taxonomy article sounds good.i) Re reversible computation - this has come up in discussion on the forum before (waste heat as a limiting factor gets talked about a lot here), but this is again an area where none of the currently active members have been able to claim much solid expertise and so we've not known quite what to do with it or what limitations it has. It somewhat comes across as a bit of a free lunch to some folks and so there is a tendency to be leery of it out of the fear that we might invest a lot of creative time on it only to have the other shoe drop and then have to undo a lot of cool stuff. Again, if you can provide some layperson friendly descriptions/EG entries/references we'd be happy to add this to the EG and the OA setting.
j) Re entropy piping - sounds cool - another potential EG article I would think
That said, in past discussions there has been mention made of something called 'bit rot' - apparently having to do with the entropy of computation and getting you waste heat and causing other limits on capability. Can you explain what that is and how would it factor into all of this?k) Re running cold vs running hot computronium - sure. While we so far haven't delved into this issue in great detail in the setting, it seems logical that Terragen civ has a vast number of different designs for computronium, each optimized for different environments, computational or storage needs, and probably some large number of other factors that are all dealt with as a matter of routine whenever some new computing installation or infrastructure is being created. So you have one set of designs for when you want to operate in high energy environments and others that are designed to work in deep space at near absolute zero, and other designs for every environement in between. And it all meshes together seamlessly from the end users point of view
l) Re quantum channels - it sounds like before we're done we should have an article on this, including the applications. Actually, I've occasionally toyed with the idea that OA should have an entire section on 'quantum tech', a whole family of technology based on various quantum weirdness - but don't have a sufficient understanding of what that might look like, what the capabilities and limitations would be, etc. Also so much going on haven't had time to learn much, and a lot of the into that is out there is more technical than I can manage.
Ok, I think that about covers everything I wanted to respond to
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the matter(s),
Todd